This is what Velvet is saying though, and I totally get it, is that he can’t recommend the game. He didn’t say F-this game and tell them to stay away from it, he just isn’t pushing it on them.

Not everyone thinks this game is great. Been collecting for years, have probably 1500-2000 in models, foam carriers, extras, etc etc, and I find the game ok but not great. I like the models and the occasional game I play with my buddy with VERY lose house rules. It’s astounding how many people don’t get that someone can see this game and not be like, omg this is the coolest thing ever.

I’ve shown this game to several people and many respond the same way. It’s cool but not worth the money. I can’t argue with that because I agree with it. I have invested far too much for me to just throw it all away but to me it’s a neat model collection with the ability to pew pew with it ocassionally.

That being said I do like epic and want to play that, not competitively, and I look forward to using those big beautiful ships.

Two of the biggest barriers to "Fly Casual" that we found in my play group were the following:

1. Due to FFG's exhaustive FAQing around, there is an extreme disparity between printed card text and "official" card text.

2. Tournament/WAAC players wanting join our campaign games, but refusing to check their Tournament/WAAC mentality at the door.

We solved these both these issues rather simply... The card does what the card says. Biggs always works. The Jumpmaster has torps and a droid. Palp works the way he reads. Deadeye can be on a large ship. Tournament players no longer want to play with us for fear of confusing themselves, and no one has to worry about "do I have the latest interpretation of the card I'm holding in my hand". Makes it so much easier on everyone.

We need new ways to play this game, not new (and more convoluted) mechanics.

FFG needs to release boxes with historical battles, (co-op) campaigns... things to bring new (and more casual) players to this (wonderful) game. Competitive 1 vs 1 game should be an advanced way to play, not the only game mode.

And your work is a superb starting work to achieve this goal. I do not know if we will see X Wing first edition campaign games. But ohhhh man. Heroes of the Aturi Cluster. Your custom upgrade and pilot cards.

Thumbs up, gentlemen.

Dude, seriously, get over yourself.

Not every player plays competitive tournaments. I'm pretty sure most don't. People want to play games that are fun, not recommending the game solely on the current tournament meta, even though they had fun, is frankly stupid.

14 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

You cant dismiss the sentiments of the vast majority of casual players because the tiny minority of tournament players think the games fine.

i loved the game, spent well over a grand on it, made scratch built ships and obstacles, a custom faction, the whole deal. and you know what? im selling most of my collection because im disgusted by FFGs policy and design. 2 friends and I fixed several of the games major problems with a couple house rules and custom cards in a shockingly short period of time. FFG could do a better job at will, but they dont and wont... care to guess why? because if your old ships were good you wouldnt buy new ships, hence powercreep. i expect some base level greed, but the current game is stupid

I respect your decision to not like a game, and I respect Velvetelvis decision to not like the game anymore. But to introduce it, and teach it, and they enjoy it, then you not recommend it based off your own feelings toward FFG and the current meta? "I dont like FFG, so you shouldn't buy into this game." "I dont like the bomb meta, so you wont either." Makes no sense.

17 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

Six brand new players at a board game night.

Each of which would have easily bought into this game in the hundreds of dollars no problem.

But I couldn' do it.for the first time in 4 years, I couldn't find the moral strength to recommend this game to them.

I will not be responsible for that amount of money being spent just to have them enter this world and it sucks.it really sucks. I want people to have fun.

Those of us who have been here for the long haul can deal with it.we shall bemoan the state of affairs and still carry on.

But how in any way do we in good conscious tell people to buy into a game that's been getting so far from it' roots?

It seems like you're letting your own notions of what the game should be cloud your judgement. New players won't have that same baggage and likely won't even understand or care what the game's "roots" are. They'll likely be much more accepting of how the game is than many players who've been involved for a long time.

If they had a lot of fun, what's the problem? It's their decision. You don't even know if they care about being competitive or not. I'd hope they're responsible enough to be able to budget for themselves without you having to look out for them in that regard.

I respect people's decisions here either way.

I've gone deep enough down the rabbit hole to be able to field most of the hotness, but I'm not really part of a big play group--just me and my one less-competitive buddy for the most part. Still, I love demoing the game for newbies, and I'd readily encourage them to get in if they're interested. The classic ships aren't always the most optimal but I've seen people get a charge out of flying them. It's always great to see people engaging with the basic rules and their favorite ships and having a good time.

TBH I think one of the most useful things that us more experienced folks can do is give buying advice to the newbies. Things like, if you really want to fly a B-wing or Defender or Falcon, just skip the expack and jump right to the aces pack (until/unless they reach the point where they need something out of it to bolster their play experience). Or, the JM5K and Nym have some good stuff in them, but buying them opens you up to needing to care more actively about FAQs/errata. Or, the E-Wing and Punisher (and some others) are probably worth just avoiding unless you really want to go deep into the niche they represent.

I think there's a related point to be made about specific meta-archetypes and affordability. Simply put, some are more affordable than others. IMO that's not a terrible thing in and of itself--there's more than one archetype out there at any given moment, and chasing meta-shifts is an expensive prospect in any game.

But eBay is there if people want to go after a specific build in a competitive format without buying certain packs, and we should be open to some proxying if people are trying to decide if they want to bite the bullet on a C-3P0 or Palp or whatever.

Overall, I think we should encourage people to play what they can feel okay about playing, and consider tailoring our list-building accordingly. I for one plan to fly a lot more straight-up jank this year... :-p

2 in my Xwing group had already switched to Imperial Assault more than Xwing and I joined them on it and I definitely don't regret it. FFG needs to fix their mistakes (Harpoon, Genius +TS, Scurgg having an EPT)

34 minutes ago, Kalandros said:

2 in my Xwing group had already switched to Imperial Assault more than Xwing and I joined them on it and I definitely don't regret it. FFG needs to fix their mistakes (Harpoon, Genius +TS, Scurgg having an EPT)

Exactly. We shouldnt feel immense relief switching games. By refusing to adress basic design flaws early, FFG have compounded them. I honestly dont know what can be done other than scraping every single pilot point cost and upgrade, thereby resetting the balance. if FFG just released a free list of balanced point costs, the whole game wuld be fine

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 9:48 AM, Odanan said:

We need new ways to play this game, not new (and more convoluted) mechanics.

FFG needs to release boxes with historical battles, (co-op) campaigns... things to bring new (and more casual) players to this (wonderful) game. Competitive 1 vs 1 game should be an advanced way to play, not the only game mode.

Like^100.

Sport-Wing is killing everyone's enthusiasm. But it does not have to be your game.

I love this game. I stay in love with this game by reading about the meta and then never playing it.

I love X-Wing, always have, but as a competitive tournament game its a real **** show and every attempt that has been made to make it a competition worthy game has gone only further to illustrate that its design is just not cut out for it. X-Wing was released with the motto "Fly Casual" and for good reason, its a light hearted dice chucker, a game driven by guessing what your opponent will do and luck of the dice and this was true until FFG designed the strategy of math building into it at which point it was still luck but broken apart by "Math-Winging" it enough for the statistics experts to break it and turn tournaments into the "A-List" meta fiasco it is today. This however has done little to dissuade the fact that X-Wing at its core is a really clever and fun game which is why introduction and induction of new players is easy. People play it, they love it and they do so because of its quaintness as a game of out guessing your opponent and it remains that until you over think it and add that "must win or die" tournament component.

For the burned out veterans my advice is, lose the meta thinking, gather some friends and re-discover how much fun it is to push miniatures around while making blaster sound effects.

16 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Exactly. We shouldnt feel immense relief switching games. By refusing to adress basic design flaws early, FFG have compounded them. I honestly dont know what can be done other than scraping every single pilot point cost and upgrade, thereby resetting the balance. if FFG just released a free list of balanced point costs, the whole game wuld be fine

The beauty of miniature games is that for the vast majority they are house games, not competitive games and in your house, you should house rule. Its really simple. If your group thinks a pilot or card is too good, too expensive or whatever.. change it. create a house "faq" and use it like its the rules.

The biggest issue the miniature gaming community has always had is this absolute loyalty to "RAW" and "Official". As a foundation, miniatures games have always been about customization and dynamics, I find it odd that people dedicate so much time to complaining about the "official" rules and so little time fixing them to their liking.

On 1/20/2018 at 1:25 AM, KommanderKeldoth said:

I continue to recommend the game to people. I started in Wave 3. It is true that the game has fundamentally changed since the early days. It has matured from a beer and pretzels game with a relatively low entry cost into more of a full fledged war game with a dense rules document and substantial investment required for entry.

I continue to ...

Is this a good thing?

Getting a new player into the game.

Oh ignore that torpedo that came in the core set, oh ignore that missile in your new ship you just bought that was in the movies, oh yes thats right you can ignore that overcosted themy torpedo because heres a copy of harpoon missile, it is the only missile and it comes in an expansion with absolutely no ships you like.

Yeah FFG

On ‎1‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 1:25 AM, KommanderKeldoth said:

It has matured from a beer and pretzels game with a relatively low entry cost into more of a full fledged war game with a dense rules document and substantial investment required for entry.

42 minutes ago, Scopes said:

Is this a good thing?

Yes, Yes, Yes.

If this game had remained a simplistic "move your mice and roll your dice" game it would have petered out a long time ago. In the beginning, ordnance didn't work well, and your action choices were "barrel roll, focus or evade." At that layer, I would have gotten as bored of the game as a whole as I am of the extremely limiting format of 100/6.

Each new mechanic adds a new layer of fun. Sure, Cloaking was broken, but Tractor Beams, Bullseye Arcs, Reload, Boost (yeah, that was an ADDED mechanic), and token passing have allowed for so much more in the game without ever causing a problem. IMHO, the game didn't start getting great until S&V added a whole extra option for play.

I'm gonna assume that most of us are adults (despite that it seems like a gang of 10 year olds out here sometimes ) and if the game didn't turn into a complex war game, a lot of early players would have gotten to point where XWM was "cute and exciting" but not interesting enough to play for 5 years.

What I will say, however, it that the game has enough complexity at this point to slow down on "the next big ship mechanic" a start looking at other aspects of play, like the narrative and adding options to the battlefield.

2 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

The biggest issue the miniature gaming community has always had is this absolute loyalty to "RAW" and "Official". As a foundation, miniatures games have always been about customization and dynamics, I find it odd that people dedicate so much time to complaining about the "official" rules and so little time fixing them to their liking.

Some of the wargammig community. X-wing seems to take it to the extreme. I feel its more because the players are used to ffg being more involved than in many other systems where frequent faqs, prize support, tournament structure aren't as common. One TO desides to go his own way for HIS tournament and the x-wing community goes bonkers.

Sorry but..."a full fledged wargame..."???. X wing?

From my wargaming experience this is one easy, simple game. And this is good.

Probably I am outdated but a full fledged wargame is another world. Advanced Squad Leader. World in Flames (with The Lot, including FiF). War in the Pacific. Eurofront. Europa games. Etc

I started playing X Wing because this is a simple and fast game. Real wargames are... not fast and simple.

And perhaps, only perhaps, this is one important design problem. Superb simple game. As you add more and more card interactions it runs less and less smoothly. Like one old PC running new OS. Not like a "old school" wargame.

100/6 arena is far, far away from a true full fledged wargame. Give us more scenarios. Campaign games. Etc.

19 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

Exactly. We shouldnt feel immense relief switching games. By refusing to adress basic design flaws early, FFG have compounded them. I honestly dont know what can be done other than scraping every single pilot point cost and upgrade, thereby resetting the balance. if FFG just released a free list of balanced point costs, the whole game wuld be fine

Why not? Sometimes, the game just isn't for you anymore. And that is okay.

Really what the game needs at this point is a 2nd edition. The FAQs are just band aids at this point. Doesn't mean I will stop teaching people how to play or not recommend it to them.

If you want to go straight to tournaments; yes, there's a lot to buy. If you want a game out of the box that's a great deal of fun to play; you're fine withe the starter and a few expansions.

ANY game that continues to push out upgrades and expansions will get bloated.

RoV