So, inspired a bit by the thread complaining about new players the cost of old expansions to collect cards, I wanted to go through and get an idea of which cards would be impacted if FFG were to simply retire everything from Wave 5 and prior. I put some limits on this: I didn't consider anything from the Epic packs, or any ship titles. Still, there were some surprising entries on this list considering how ubiquitous some of these upgrades still are in the game today.

Upgrade cards only:

Core Set: Determination, *R2-D2, *R2-F2
Wave 1: R5 Astromech, *R5-K6, Swarm Tactics, R2 Astromech, *R5-D8, , *Squad Leader, Concussion Missiles
Wave 2: Draw Their Fire, Elusiveness, Daredevil, *Luke Skywalker
Wave 3: Blaster Turret, Ion Cannon Turret, Intelligence Agent, Saboteur, Weapons Engineer, *Darth Vader, Flight Instructor, Navigator, *Rebel Captive, Anti-Pursuit Lasers
Wave 4: Advanced Sensors, Assault Missiles, Fire-Control System, Decoy, Wingman, Ion Pulse Missiles, Munitions Failsafe, Outmaneuver, R7 Astromech, R7-T1
Imperial Aces: Push the Limit, Opportunist, Shield Upgrade, Targeting Computer
Wave 5: Mercenary Co-Pilot, Gunner, Proton Bombs, *Leebo, *Dash Rendar, *Lando Calrissian, *Experimental Interface, Ruthlessness, Fleet Officer, *Mara Jade, *Moff Jerjerrod, *Ysanne Isard

Some random notes:
- The Lambda really comes with a lot of staples. Advanced Sensors, APL, Intel Agent, Weapons Engineer, Vader and Rebel Captive all still see a lot of time on the tables.

- How much of a player freakout would we see if Advanced Sensors, FCS, PTL and Gunner all went away at the same time?

- Rebels would lose most of their best astromechs, while Imps lose almost all of their best crew.

23 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

So, inspired a bit by the thread complaining about new players the cost of old expansions to collect cards, I wanted to go through and get an idea of which cards would be impacted if FFG were to simply retire everything from Wave 5 and prior. I put some limits on this: I didn't consider anything from the Epic packs, or any ship titles. Still, there were some surprising entries on this list considering how ubiquitous some of these upgrades still are in the game today.

Upgrade cards only:

Core Set: Determination, *R2-D2, *R2-F2
Wave 1: R5 Astromech, *R5-K6, Swarm Tactics, R2 Astromech, *R5-D8, , *Squad Leader, Concussion Missiles
Wave 2: Draw Their Fire, Elusiveness, Daredevil, *Luke Skywalker
Wave 3: Blaster Turret, Ion Cannon Turret, Intelligence Agent, Saboteur, Weapons Engineer, *Darth Vader, Flight Instructor, Navigator, *Rebel Captive, Anti-Pursuit Lasers
Wave 4: Advanced Sensors, Assault Missiles, Fire-Control System, Decoy, Wingman, Ion Pulse Missiles, Munitions Failsafe, Outmaneuver, R7 Astromech, R7-T1
Imperial Aces: Push the Limit, Opportunist, Shield Upgrade, Targeting Computer
Wave 5: Mercenary Co-Pilot, Gunner, Proton Bombs, *Leebo, *Dash Rendar, *Lando Calrissian, *Experimental Interface, Ruthlessness, Fleet Officer, *Mara Jade, *Moff Jerjerrod, *Ysanne Isard

Some random notes:
- The Lambda really comes with a lot of staples. Advanced Sensors, APL, Intel Agent, Weapons Engineer, Vader and Rebel Captive all still see a lot of time on the tables.

- How much of a player freakout would we see if Advanced Sensors, FCS, PTL and Gunner all went away at the same time?

- Rebels would lose most of their best astromechs, while Imps lose almost all of their best crew.

Most of the time I am the guy to see the positive sides of stuff, but this brings the negative side of me to the surface. TBH I think this is a terrible idea! No offence but you may not have thought about the fact that people will whine about the money they ''wasted''. 'Nuff said.

Perhaps if FFG could section it into eras. All "eras" would use waves 1-(3 or 4), Red Core Set, and Blue Core Set for wave 7 onwards. Upgrades would be limited by era. There could also be a format where you can fly anything, similar to MTG's Modern format.

4 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Perhaps if FFG could section it into eras. All "eras" would use waves 1-(3 or 4), Red Core Set, and Blue Core Set for wave 7 onwards. Upgrades would be limited by era. There could also be a format where you can fly anything, similar to MTG's Modern format.

But how often do you encounter a build where it uses upgrades from all of your ''eras''? Exactly almost all the time, so then you cant play them anymore. also the BROKEN OP-lists are with upgrades from 1 era not all eras... so that wouldnt fix it.

To remove some of those Upgrades would inadvertently break the synergy of many pilot/upgrade combos. Who would fly Soontir Fell without Push the Limit? Answer: No one.

There are definitely some upgrades that probably don't get used much anymore, and if "retired" probably wouldn't be missed, but I don't think you can just retire waves of upgrades without major impact on the modern meta. I don't think you can re-classify or restrict upgrades to an "era" either.

The whole concept is quite unworkable.

The way X-Wing has been designed, doing a Wave-Based retirement just doesn't make any sense to me.

Per the Accretion thread here, I think X-Wing would be better suited to a Hordes/Warmachine CID system, than to a Magic The Gathering phase retirement system.

52 minutes ago, Parravon said:

To remove some of those Upgrades would inadvertently break the synergy of many pilot/upgrade combos. Who would fly Soontir Fell without Push the Limit? Answer: No one.

There are definitely some upgrades that probably don't get used much anymore, and if "retired" probably wouldn't be missed, but I don't think you can just retire waves of upgrades without major impact on the modern meta. I don't think you can re-classify or restrict upgrades to an "era" either.

The whole concept is quite unworkable.

Agreed. They could mitigate that by reprinting some of those cards, as they've been doing elsewhere. But things like the Rebel Astromechs would really hurt.

It was a thought experiment based on the occasional comments I see asking why X-Wing doesn't have a rotation. I was surprised to see some of the results, like the lack of FCS, Advanced Sensors and PTL since Wave 4/Imperial Aces.

No! Then I can't run my Gamma vets with Determination

It is safe to say that now everything from Wave 1 is broken in its either OP in the meta or worthless in the meta.

I do think that the upgrade card pool could benefit from the rotation a little. The trick is though is to either recycle or replace meta needed. Veteran Instincts has been reprinted in Wave 10. Although I am sure most players would agree that Adaptability would be a suitable replacement.

As for pilot cards I say keep the pilot names in their ship, but replace (rewrite) everything to include the point cost and adaptability. Would Biggs be so overpowered if his ability was restricted to Wedge and Luke (both pilot and crew)?

14 hours ago, Marinealver said:

It is safe to say that now everything from Wave 1 is broken in its either OP in the meta or worthless in the meta.

I do think that the upgrade card pool could benefit from the rotation a little. The trick is though is to either recycle or replace meta needed. Veteran Instincts has been reprinted in Wave 10. Although I am sure most players would agree that Adaptability would be a suitable replacement.

As for pilot cards I say keep the pilot names in their ship, but replace (rewrite) everything to include the point cost and adaptability . Would Biggs be so overpowered if his ability was restricted to Wedge and Luke (both pilot and crew)?

I wouldn't say everything from Wave 1 is broken. You've got Squad Leader, Swarm Tactics, R2 Astromech and Ion Cannon Turret in there that are still being used. And of those I think the ICT is the only one that could use a revision points wise.

As for the pilots, Howlrunner, Black Sqn pilots and the humble Academy pilots are still used to flesh out some lists because they're cheap cannon-fodder when you need it. The X-wing and TIE Advanced were both overpriced for what you got and I don't think anyone would ague there. But if you're willing to pay the points, Wedge with R2-D2 is always a PITA. And I think anyone that likes Imperials will have a TIE Advanced in their collection just because Darth Vader's ride, even if they don't use him. It's iconic, and a "must-have" model.

I don't think you can rule out anything from the original core set through to now, without it having some effect on the current meta. What is sorely needed is more play-testing with some of these expansions before they get released then promptly nerfed. It seems FFG is more focused on getting whatever product into the market and seeing how it performs at championships then addressing the issues, instead of getting a well-balanced product into the market.

If they chose to retire everything wave 5 and before, they’d also be retiring me (having joined in wave 3) and more than a few other people.

At this point I think you just make it acceptable in Store Championship level and below to use printed cards. Problem solved.

No.

That's all. Just.. no.