"The K'wing" is not a problem ship. Miranda is a problem ship. "The Scurrg" is (probably?) not a problem ship. Captain Nym is a problem ship. On the other hand, "the JumpMaster," not just particular pilots was a problem ship.

When talking about nerfing things, it would be really helpful if people would be clear on this stuff. "The K-wing" got its *** nerfed off, by the asinine neutering of AdvSLAM. "Miranda" wasn't fazed. (Which was just shocking. So shocking.)

When nerfs aren't targeted properly, that's when things get really stupid. (Like, again, the JM5K. How many overly-specific nerfs were made to that ship because people kept saying specific builds were the problem?)

I bought and flew 3 Skurrg when they came out. Won and lost games with them. Captain Nym didn't become a problem ship until Trajectory Simulator.

4 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

I bought and flew 3 Skurrg when they came out. Won and lost games with them. Captain Nym didn't become a problem ship until Trajectory Simulator.

Exactly. "Specific ship with specific upgrades" is even better.

I figured I'd start slow ...

1 minute ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:

(Lol quoting myself is the only way to get this gif in)

Pre-nerf Genius/advanced sensors Nym was a real problem long before TS existed.

While I'll agree with the premise that at the moment Miranda and not the K-wing is a problem, I don't agree with that pre-Adv SLAM nerf. Low PS bomb slamming K-Wings were an unfun meta warping list that I'm not sorry to see the end of.

I'd also say that while the generic Scuurg might be fine now it suffers from the same base problem as the J5k, an overabundance of upgrade slots that may be OK in this moment but is just waiting for a new upgrade card to push it into full on broken.

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Pre-nerf Genius/advanced sensors Nym was a real problem long before TS existed.

While I'll agree with the premise that at the moment Miranda and not the K-wing is a problem, I don't agree with that pre-Adv SLAM nerf. Low PS bomb slamming K-Wings were an unfun meta warping list that I'm not sorry to see the end of.

I'd also say that while the generic Scuurg might be fine now it suffers from the same base problem as the J5k, an overabundance of upgrade slots that may be OK in this moment but is just waiting for a new upgrade card to push it into full on broken.

All fine. (Except, of course, that with the tiniest bit of creativity, SLAM could have been modified, instead of nuking AdvSLAM, but whatever.)

The point is to be specific. Unspecific complaints about very specific problems are bad.

The issue for the Skurrg is that there is simply nothing it does badly. It's priced on par with the G-1A and M12-L. The only area where its cheapest generic is at a disadvantage is in pilot skill. Otherwise, for a slight point cost, you get a torp/missile slot combo (unlocking Long Range Scanners), a turret slot, two bombs, and either a crew slot or a system/astro combo. Plus, solid hull and shields on a chassis that can still Tallon Roll and Barrel Roll. The G-1A has to buy that BR with a title, and the Kimogila only has a single speed-4 K-turn with a harder-to-use fixed firing arc.

That Nym gets an EPT on top of that is just icing on a ridiculous cake.

Eh, the SCURRG also doesn't do anything particularly well which is why only nym proved to be an absolute SCURRG scourge of the competitive meta

It's also not terribly efficient and the dial, while not terrible, is decidedly unimpressive

The g1-a and B just suck. The Kim is 2 points cheaper at the lowest ps

My thought on both of these ships is why give them both torpedoes and missiles? Sure the K-wing in Legends had both (still not good from a game-play design) but the Havoc didn't have torpedo slots.

How much of the problem is TLT though? Personally I hate the card but how badly does it need a fix, if at all?

I don't know that K-Wings (at the time of the Advanced SLAM nerf) weren't a problem waiting to happen, and the same with non-Nym Scurrgs, but that they were/are driven out by lists which are bigger problems.

I've seen folks say the only problem is Rebel Nym, and that Scum Nym isn't a problem. However, why would anyone fly Scum Nym when Miranda is a better ship to fly him with than any Scum ship? However, just because Miranda is better, that doesn't mean that Scum Nym partnered with someone else wouldn't also be a problem if Miranda was deleted. There may be near-substitutes for some of the most problematic lists in the meta right now, but they're being suppressed by slightly better versions. I bet if Dash had been deleted at the height of his powers, Leebo could probably step up.

To the extent that Triple Harpoon Deadeye Scurrgs isn't an issue, it's perhaps that Gunboats do the same thing better, but Harpoon Gunboats are perhaps an issue themselves.

I mean, Triple AdvSLAM Wardens might be a list which ought to have died, because of it's skewed nature.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

(Except, of course, that with the tiniest bit of creativity, SLAM could have been modified, instead of nuking AdvSLAM, but whatever.)

What change would you have made to SLAM? I personally don't really think a modification to SLAM itself could have been accomplished that would have weakened Miranda sufficiently without utterly nuking any ship which wanted to use SLAMing in general (or being a stealth-buff to some ships, which would perhaps be worse).

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

What change would you have made to SLAM? I personally don't really think a modification to SLAM itself could have been accomplished that would have weakened Miranda sufficiently without utterly nuking any ship which wanted to use SLAMing in general (or being a stealth-buff to some ships, which would perhaps be worse).

AGGGGH!

The change they made didn't weaken Miranda! All it did was kick Wardens in the nads, when Wardens were already on the ground anyway.

SLAM could have been changed to "exact same maneuver," or "only a straight maneuver," or "only a 2-speed maneuver." There are many other possibilities. SLAM is an incredibly powerful action. If there was a problem with Wardens, it was with SLAM, not with AdvSLAM. And a change to SLAM would have actually affected Miranda, which the change to AdvSLAM didn't in the slightest.

29 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

AGGGGH!

The change they made didn't weaken Miranda! All it did was kick Wardens in the nads, when Wardens were already on the ground anyway.

SLAM could have been changed to "exact same maneuver," or "only a straight maneuver," or "only a 2-speed maneuver." There are many other possibilities. SLAM is an incredibly powerful action. If there was a problem with Wardens, it was with SLAM, not with AdvSLAM. And a change to SLAM would have actually affected Miranda, which the change to AdvSLAM didn't in the slightest.

I think it's clear that Experimental Interface on Miranda isn't as good as Advanced SLAM, so she's been slightly weakened. Like, 2% weaker. I'll completely agree that the ASLAM nerf didn't impact a lot of the core problems with Miranda, but I can't agree that it didn't change her at all. I think Miranda would be stronger than she currently is if the nerf hadn't gone through, even though it clearly hurt Wardens far more than it hurt Miranda.

As to the SLAM changes, I think "exact same" and "straight only" would have pretty much killed SLAM entirely. I think "2 speed only" might have been a slight buff, since a ship could SLAM faster after a 1-speed, and having access to a 2-hard and not just a bank after doing any sort of a 3-speed opens as many doors as it closes for K-Wings. Speed 3 + Speed 2 is only one ship-length less far. It matters, but not that much. I dunno. Given how often we see the Burnout SLAM illicit, I'm not convinced that SLAM is a problem in itself, but rather it's mostly in conjunction with Advanced SLAM/EI that problems arose. Either killing SLAM nukes Advanced SLAM anyhow, or SLAM changes wouldn't have enough of an impact on the problems with ships using Advanced SLAM.

Meanwhile, I think a change to the action itself would still disproportionately hurt Wardens over Miranda, because Miranda has more tricks and tools at her disposal, while pretty much the only thing Wardens did was Advanced SLAM bombing. They'd have still been kicked down hard by any changes to SLAM which could have made a dent in Miranda.

//

Unrelatedly, I'd had loved if Advanced SLAM had also gotten a cost reduction to go with it's nerf (at 0 points, it'd be an interesting alternative to consider in the mod slot), and bake that cost into the Gunboat, but that's clearly not what they did.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

I think it's clear that Experimental Interface on Miranda isn't as good as Advanced SLAM, so she's been slightly weakened.

Sure, now she gets a stress after she put herself in a really good position anyways after that drop weakens her little bit. But now she can go over that rock that was protecting me before and still drop the freaking bomb.

4 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Sure, now she gets a stress after she put herself in a really good position anyways after that drop weakens her little bit. But now she can go over that rock that was protecting me before and still drop the freaking bomb.

Fair. I'm still inclined to think ASLAM was a hair stronger (no one was using EI instead prior to the nerf), but I hadn't thought of this interaction.

2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

I bought and flew 3 Skurrg when they came out. Won and lost games with them. Captain Nym didn't become a problem ship until Trajectory Simulator.

See, I think you're making the exact mistake the OP is pointing out. Or at least your sentiments echo those of people making the mistake that Trajectory Simulator is the issue. IMO, it's totally fine on low PS ships. Yes it gives them an additional place to set a bomb, but they're still guessing where the enemy will end up; or at most, dictating where they will end up as they spend their actions to avoid it. Trajectory simulator isn't a bad mechanic, but it is a problem on high PS bombers. Even then, it wouldn't be a problem if not for all the other upgrade slots on the skurgg.

26 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

AGGGGH!

The change they made didn't weaken Miranda! All it did was kick Wardens in the nads, when Wardens were already on the ground anyway.

SLAM could have been changed to "exact same maneuver," or "only a straight maneuver," or "only a 2-speed maneuver." There are many other possibilities. SLAM is an incredibly powerful action. If there was a problem with Wardens, it was with SLAM, not with AdvSLAM. And a change to SLAM would have actually affected Miranda, which the change to AdvSLAM didn't in the slightest.

I think the biggest advantage SLAM gives Miranda is the ability to SLAM into ships. It makes it extremely hard to focus fire on her at times. It's easy to see how a regen ship that can play the "long game" would be an issue. Wardens slamming into ships just rob themselves of dice modifiers, and whatever ship they hit will likely just activate after and move away.

Disallowing a bump would go a long way towards the bringing the utility of SLAM for Miranda more in line with Wardens.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Fair. I'm still inclined to think ASLAM was a hair stronger (no one was using EI instead prior to the nerf), but I hadn't thought of this interaction.

She also costs one point more which is a benefit

If the timing is the issue with TS, why not make the system require dropping the bomb at the same timing as a phantom decloak, after dials, but before anyone moves?

10 hours ago, Koing907 said:

I bought and flew 3 Skurrg when they came out. Won and lost games with them. Captain Nym didn't become a problem ship until Trajectory Simulator.

LOL.

Did you miss the bomblet, genius, advanced sensor hype about Captain Nym? They literally changed genius to fix this, while introducing a $40 loophole to keep playing Nym with genius and Trajectory Simulator instead.

Ah, Miranda and Nym, they’re just great pilot skills on too flexible and therefore great chassis.

FFG shouldn’t nerf generics until all the high PS is removed from the OP, generics are cool.

Just remove Nym’s EPT and take away both their turret upgrade icons.

....on a separate note, Regen use should be capped at the ships original shield value, IMO.

17 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Eh, the SCURRG also doesn't do anything particularly well which is why only nym proved to be an absolute SCURRG scourge of the competitive meta

It's also not terribly efficient and the dial, while not terrible, is decidedly unimpressive

The g1-a and B just suck. The Kim is 2 points cheaper at the lowest ps

What are you talking about? Not efficient?

It has the same stats as the lambda which is considered a really good deal for the stats, if not for the horrendous dial.

The scurrg has a (much) better dial and a better upgrade bar.

That ship is ridiculously efficient in it's points.

Im surprised Miranda has not been touched in any nerf. Jumpmasters got castrated in upgrades but Miranda still has 234,756,234 upgrade slots. Bring adv slam back to normal and take the turret or crew slot away fromm the kwing. It doesnt need to bomb and have sabine. Thats like imperials having Quickdraw carry Palpatine. Let rebels bring a crappier crew carrier along.

10 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

FFG shouldn’t nerf generics until all the high PS is removed from the OP, generics are cool.

Totally right. Generics are my favorite! I was a little sad at this thread when it showed up:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/259370-generics-why-do-they-exist/

I think a lot of people (devs included) don't understand generics...

1 hour ago, wurms said:

Im surprised Miranda has not been touched in any nerf. Jumpmasters got castrated in upgrades but Miranda still has 234,756,234 upgrade slots. Bring adv slam back to normal and take the turret or crew slot away fromm the kwing. It doesnt need to bomb and have sabine. Thats like imperials having Quickdraw carry Palpatine. Let rebels bring a crappier crew carrier along.

I think the way to fix Miranda is to make her ability Primary weapon only. there isn't much down side to rolling 1 less die on one attack with a TLT to get one shield back. Adding 1 die for a shield to make a super Harpoon is just stupid.

As for TLT Nym, I think the issue is that he simply doesnt need anything to mod attacks. He has Sabine on Miranda for at least one extra damage and you are rolling two three die attacks for TLT to get 2 damage through. This allows him to K Turn or barrel roll etc to get the shot he needs. With 1 Agi, I doubt he will focus for Defence, but may Focus for the TLT depending on what he is facing. he is just crazily flexible in what he can or needs to do.

Just my thoughts on Nym and Miranda.

2 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Totally right. Generics are my favorite! I was a little sad at this thread when it showed up:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/259370-generics-why-do-they-exist/

I think a lot of people (devs included) don't understand generics...

Some of us remember the times when it wasn't worth it to bring named pilots. It is a complicated issue.