I do not understand the massive discussion here on this... Many have mentioned how the community is great. Well, do not be afraid to borrow cards or proxy. That way the vets with most of the stuff can help the new players and the new players can test drive.

It is how the community grows. And it takes both sides (new and old players) to make it work. And it benefits everyone.

I have an average amount of content but when I am eyeing a new list I seek out individual cards on ebay. The stuff I have not used for a while I sell. Money is not too tight so I cannot complain but it is not unreasonable to think you can put $200 into this game and keep buying and selling as the meta changes and not spend too much at all. And that is not even accounting for borrowing or proxy.

I tell new players to think about the cost of Magic, Warhammer, even Pokemon TCG and dwarf that to get your x-wing cost lol

2 minutes ago, Kijaucey said:

I do not understand the massive discussion here on this... Many have mentioned how the community is great. Well, do not be afraid to borrow cards or proxy. That way the vets with most of the stuff can help the new players and the new players can test drive.

It is how the community grows. And it takes both sides (new and old players) to make it work. And it benefits everyone.

I have an average amount of content but when I am eyeing a new list I seek out individual cards on ebay. The stuff I have not used for a while I sell. Money is not too tight so I cannot complain but it is not unreasonable to think you can put $200 into this game and keep buying and selling as the meta changes and not spend too much at all. And that is not even accounting for borrowing or proxy.

I tell new players to think about the cost of Magic, Warhammer, even Pokemon TCG and dwarf that to get your x-wing cost lol

Oh god. Double oh god.

I...I'm guilty...I need help...

At least I gave up Magic a decade or two ago...but 40k still has its paint encrusted claws in me.

(Now FFG is the prime culprit in sucking all my dollars into its evil vortex.)

So obviously there are casual and competitive players, and arguably those in the position that even if they were casual they had to play against competitive players. For strictly casual players, the point is moot and no need to reply. For those having to play against competitive players for whatever reason, they would obviously feel crushed and it would be unfun, as noted before. For strictly competitive players, there are those with enough disposable income that again, the point is moot. Whatever the fraction of budget conscious competitive players there is, who knows. The model is dogmatically defended but it could be better. It is obviously a cash cow for FFG, so they won't change their model even if it punishes the budget competitive player base. My point is there is no point in discussing this. You are either:

-Casual: You don't care about anything other than playing with iconic ships even if they aren't competitive. Upgrades don't really matter, nor obscure powerful ships.

-Competitive with enough money: You just play, and it is worthwhile and feasible to buy new ships.

-Budget: FFG won't change their model. It can be better, but you just have to suck it up or not play competitively. I agree if it was cheaper there would be more retention. I see a lot of people locally getting into the game and then just selling their whole little collections because their squads just can't keep up. In my case, living in a foreign country where ships cost a lot more and currency is worth less, so from a disposable income perspective stuff costs at least 4x. Also the local community hates proxies, won't lend, makes ridiculous rookie tournaments that rewards those with full collections and punishes those with just a few ships, and well no wonder so many people come in and then get out. I've been collecting since the start of the game, but I'm still missing a lot of stuff. I've also said before that stuff like Heroes of the Resistance is a step in a good direction, since it is the closest to a prebuilt army, and even thematic, but that product has never been replicated. I think more people would be drawn into the game if they went to a store and saw viable x-wing squadrons or swarm of ties that would have a reasonable entry cost. Right now, even if people are drawn into the game, a big portion are scared away because of the massive investment. Four wookies isn't exactly omg movie material, and Rey and Poe need quite a bit more stuff to make it work.

If they decided to improve upon the model, without affecting their bottom line too much:

-Repaints coming with different upgrade cards. A possible limitation is that there would be too many different products. It would be better to just stick to aces fix packs, since they are essentially that.

-Tournament promos are also a way to make cards cheaper in the aftermarket.

-I'd suggest having faction specific starters or entry armies. It doesn't need to be bleeding edge but being a reasonable tier 2-3 is good enough. And they also don't need to include the latest. In other games, stuff is expensive when it comes out but then it is okay after say, a year, if those previously chase cards were made more widely available. Even though there are tournament promos, starter armies would be a reasonable way to get something useful for a reasonable price that wan't as obscure as 4 auzitucks. I wouldn't mind if there was a decent starting pack featuring x-wings, boba fett and vader, for each faction respectively, that helped new players get some anchor before getting deeper into the game.

5 hours ago, Kijaucey said:

I do not understand the massive discussion here on this... Many have mentioned how the community is great. Well, do not be afraid to borrow cards or proxy. That way the vets with most of the stuff can help the new players and the new players can test drive.

It is how the community grows. And it takes both sides (new and old players) to make it work. And it benefits everyone.

This. I don't know anyone in our LGS who wouldn't be happy to lend out a given upgrade card for an evening/day/whatever.

Hmmm. I think for club players that use print-outs then the game is quite accessible but I would say that it can disappoint new players in that quite a few ships are quite ineffective against the new ships and even in a casual club there are always a few who only play the nasty lists.

Ie: What do you mean my Tie interceptors that I just bought are worthless and are about be destroyed by a Ghost shooting off autoblaster kills?

3 minutes ago, william1134 said:

Hmmm. I think for club players that use print-outs then the game is quite accessible but I would say that it can disappoint new players in that quite a few ships are quite ineffective against the new ships and even in a casual club there are always a few who only play the nasty lists.

Ie: What do you mean my Tie interceptors that I just bought are worthless and are about be destroyed by a Ghost shooting off autoblaster kills?

Ugh, yeah. This game has some blindsides in that regard.

Part of the reason I don't let myself take any of it very seriously.

On 2/20/2018 at 10:44 AM, Deathseed said:

Oh god. Double oh god.

I...I'm guilty...I need help...

At least I gave up Magic a decade or two ago...but 40k still has its paint encrusted claws in me.

(Now FFG is the prime culprit in sucking all my dollars into its evil vortex.)

EDH is ok as long as your playgroup is fine with taobao proxies.

On 20.2.2018 at 9:41 AM, Deathseed said:

Part of the reason I don't let myself take any of it very seriously.

While that‘s perfectly alright, it does not mean that you should or can look down on people who do take it more seriously than you.

Yes it‘s plastic ships and making pew pew sounds. But for some it is also a bit more. There are people investing a lot of time: The squadbuilders, websites, calculators and apps we use, the streams we watch, the podcasts we listen to - they were all made by people that clearly take the game more seriously than you do.

Just throwing that out there

The guy who runs the local game store tells me that it's the tournament players that scare away most people from the game. Or forces them to play at home with buddies. I've seen it first hand for guys I've gotten into the game.

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The guy who runs the local game store tells me that it's the tournament players that scare away most people from the game. Or forces them to play at home with buddies. I've seen it first hand for guys I've gotten into the game.

Honest eagle a person who once ran a game store said that millitant casuals engage in porg sacrifices behind the Dairy Queen.

12 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

Honest eagle a person who once ran a game store said that millitant casuals engage in porg sacrifices behind the Dairy Queen.

Quite possible, yet irrelevant.

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The guy who runs the local game store tells me that it's the tournament players that scare away most people from the game. Or forces them to play at home with buddies. I've seen it first hand for guys I've gotten into the game.

I've witnessed this over 4 years and 3 locations. New people come in and don't show back up because they got mercilessly rolled. And I'm even getting sick of the WAAC torney scene.

If you think FFG and X-wing is daunting to approach, compare it to other miniature wargames like WH40K or even CCG's like MTG. X-wing is very approachable in the category but the category itself is the deep end of the gaming pool.

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The guy who runs the local game store tells me that it's the tournament players that scare away most people from the game. Or forces them to play at home with buddies. I've seen it first hand for guys I've gotten into the game.

I do not want this to happing in our relatively new, small community in my area. I try not to run over newer players. and the guys that have been around a bit know that I play competitive and like the challenge, so I bring it when I play them. But there are like 3 brand new guys including a young kid. most of the current players will dial it back. I hope that point of view lasts.

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

The guy who runs the local game store tells me that it's the tournament players that scare away most people from the game. Or forces them to play at home with buddies. I've seen it first hand for guys I've gotten into the game.

Absolutely this and it depends on the store. One place that's 20 minutes from me has nothing but guys who sit down to kick the crap out of you. I went there 3 times asking different people "hey, I like the game and want to improve, any pointers?" because i wanted to try being more on the competitive side of things. One told me to stop sucking, another said he doesn't help anyone who doesn't fly Imperials, the last wanted me to pay him.for advice. That last time, I introduced a father and son to the game, the kid asked ME for advice since I played with him and we ran the demo game from the core set. "Buy what you like, purchase from this store, but don't play these guys." I sat with the two of them running down what I knew and liked of the game, showing off the miniatures (I literally bring everything with me). They bought about $200 worth of ships that day.

I saw them yesterday picking up my comics and the kid was hyped for the Renegades expansion and told me that he tried playing one of the other guys in the shop and the guy flat out told him to stop playing. (He hasn't.)

There's a second store about an hour from me that I told them about that's super chill and open to new and inexperienced players, so hopefully they'll have more fun there...

I need to get back over there one of these weekends.

3 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

Absolutely this and it depends on the store. One place that's 20 minutes from me has nothing but guys who sit down to kick the crap out of you. I went there 3 times asking different people "hey, I like the game and want to improve, any pointers?" because i wanted to try being more on the competitive side of things. One told me to stop sucking, another said he doesn't help anyone who doesn't fly Imperials, the last wanted me to pay him.for advice.

these guys suck.

10 minutes ago, PanchoX1 said:

these guys suck.

They do. They've since switch over to Warhammer, so I don't even bother with them anymore.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Quite possible, yet irrelevant.

Just as relevant as your divisive nonsense about tournament players. What drove players away from this apocryphal game store were crappy people who happened to be tournament players. Balkanizing and reinforcing this divide between casuals and tournament players is unhelpful at best. I have first hand experience of is practising some fresh new tech (at the time) and having an over the shoulder observer declare "oh, Paratanni, real hard." Ignoring that it wasn't Parattanni, a specific list, but instead any scum list that has attanni. This is an example of a crappy casual player who could drive someone from a store. If I were one to make broad inferences based on the behavior of individuals it may mean that all of the casuals in the area, or perhaps, the world (gasp) were judgemental regressives. I did not make this leap, because every person is responsible for themselves and this jerk who had nothing to add was as the buzzing of flies to Vigo.

If youre going to make bold declarations to divide the community, maybe consider in your own example that the casuals are softbodies who need to be coddled and the tournament players stick with it because they accept to get good you have to take some lumps. I don't believe this is the case, but spin is a heck of a thing...

I'm not sure if this will help any new player reading this, but I would like to convey my path to X wing.

A good friend of mine purchased TFA Core set and we played it. As he got more into the game, he purchased more expansions and we would play them. He attended tournaments and store champs and finally convinced me to do the same (because I enjoyed playing the game so much). My first store tournament was played with 100% borrowed stuff.

I decided that I wanted to play in more tournaments, so I settled on a list that I wanted to be my competitive list and made my purchase. I had to do some trading to get what I finally needed (Traded the whole B-wing pack, EXCEPT the FCS that I needed, for an Expertise card), but I was able to make my list.

Since then, I've made purchases of the ships that I would actually fly, and now I can fly some fun and crazy stuff. I also do decently well at big events (made 13th place at my first regionals).

Here are some condensed tips for saving money as an x wing player:

• Show up, make friends, and borrow from the person you are playing to get a feel for the game (The game costs money, but actually finding someone to play it with is a priceless thing, so people are willing to share their toys)
• Pick a faction that you love (The themes for each faction have blended over time, but each is still distinctive) [This can save you a TON of cash]
• Buy the new waves that you will actually use (The most expensive thing you can buy is something you never use)
• Take the time to learn from losing a game with a list before changing it (Lists can't learn and get better; that's your job)
• Understand that "old" doesn't mean "bad". People will have learned to counter certain cards and tactics, but some older ships and upgrades are still viable. (I have heard "Oh God, someone brought a SWARM!" several times at tournaments)

I hope this was helpful.

2 hours ago, PanchoX1 said:

I do not want this to happing in our relatively new, small community in my area. I try not to run over newer players. and the guys that have been around a bit know that I play competitive and like the challenge, so I bring it when I play them. But there are like 3 brand new guys including a young kid. most of the current players will dial it back. I hope that point of view lasts.

I highly recommend playing furballs. You can play around with the point value but generally its anywhere between 30 pts to 40 pts. You can probably get about up to 8 players on 1 table. Play once a month or so. It really helps the new guys. It allows everyone to just relax, joke around, and have fun. No one cares who wins. If your ship blows up, it respawns.

18 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

Just as relevant as your divisive nonsense about tournament players. What drove players away from this apocryphal game store were crappy people who happened to be tournament players. Balkanizing and reinforcing this divide between casuals and tournament players is unhelpful at best. I have first hand experience of is practising some fresh new tech (at the time) and having an over the shoulder observer declare "oh, Paratanni, real hard." Ignoring that it wasn't Parattanni, a specific list, but instead any scum list that has attanni. This is an example of a crappy casual player who could drive someone from a store. If I were one to make broad inferences based on the behavior of individuals it may mean that all of the casuals in the area, or perhaps, the world (gasp) were judgemental regressives. I did not make this leap, because every person is responsible for themselves and this jerk who had nothing to add was as the buzzing of flies to Vigo.

If youre going to make bold declarations to divide the community, maybe consider in your own example that the casuals are softbodies who need to be coddled and the tournament players stick with it because they accept to get good you have to take some lumps. I don't believe this is the case, but spin is a heck of a thing...

You need to chill out a bit. The level of hostility you are throwing off is pretty high. You seem ready to be offended by whatever you can find.

My "bold declarations" was that I retold what the guy running my local game store told me. I retold a real life conversation, not some bold declaration. It's what the guy running my local store thinks. I'm talking about my local store. Other people chimed in and said the same happened at their store.

It's not an anti-tournament statement. Look at @PanchoX1 and his response. He talks about playing less competitive vs. new players. He's a tournament guy and not steam rolling new or casual players. It might be food for thought about how some people might play the game and be unwelcoming towards newer players.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

You need to chill out a bit.

Alright, lets recallibrate the chill. I agree with @PanchoX1's way of doing things. ROFLstomping new kids does nothing constructive for anyone. I find @Kehl_Aecea's experience at the closer store disgusting but entirely believable. It's an example of a toxic community left to fester. My point towards you in your original post hasn't changed: these are crappy people who would ruin any well meaning new players good time. Whether they are "tournament players" or "casual players" is far and away less important than that they are toxic blowholes.

On 1/19/2018 at 12:05 PM, s1ickrick said:

Never said I was struggling to make the cut. Struggling to build a squad that can even compete. You say you can build a squad with those ships and cards. Let’s see it. We will go see if that list is on meta wing anywhere. For any regionals Top 16.

I want to point out that I've beaten some top meta lists with a Baby Blue list. ( 4x T-70s ). My advice is: Use the ships you like, practice with them, experiment with a squadron builder app, and for early builds use K.I.S.S. ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). Having a top list is one thing, using it is another. The main goal is to have fun. if you don't, then it becomes work...and we all already have a job. What list do you like? i typically use 4x b-wings, 4x t-70s or 4x y-wings ( totally a rebel player )

42 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

Alright, lets recallibrate the chill. I agree with @PanchoX1's way of doing things. ROFLstomping new kids does nothing constructive for anyone. I find @Kehl_Aecea's experience at the closer store disgusting but entirely believable. It's an example of a toxic community left to fester. My point towards you in your original post hasn't changed: these are crappy people who would ruin any well meaning new players good time. Whether they are "tournament players" or "casual players" is far and away less important than that they are toxic blowholes.

I would say that the people in my store weren't as much jerks as the ones in @Kehl_Aecea 's post, but they didn't really act like @PanchoX1, either. All I can really speak from are the experiences I have encountered. While not being a jerk, they didn't really stop playing WAAC for people that were just looking for a fun game. The guy who owns my local shop told me he sells to lots of players, but they don't want to come in to play the regulars.

Look, I got burnt out on Tournament play, but I'm not against it. I'm against tournament players thinking it's the only way, or the "real" way to play. I get frustrated when tournament players scare off people interested in the game. I get tired of tournament players telling people that X ship sucks and you should never fly it. I'm not "militant casual". Tournament games are fine, if that's what you want to do.

You can take my comment about what the guy who runs my local store told me and consider it some shot across the bow of tournament players if you want. Get all indignant and such. I'm just reporting what the guy told me.

7 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Going super hard against a gentle little baby makes a person a jerk. "Looking for a fun game" is a sludgy term though: a lot of people find their fun in pushing that engine to the redline. If there is a conversation before the game, which I assume to be the case, it's really not that hard to callibrate what kind of game an opponent wants to play, then either play that kind of game, explain what you want and compromise, or find a more suitable opponent.

Your local store owner is complicit in the problem, and it's easy to be because those who have been "scared off" still spend their hard earned scratch with him. Owning a shop gives you the ability to adjust the behavior of your patrons. If I found a game I want to play, and the LGS had a trash community that didn't fit my bill, I'd be buying that game for 30-50% less on the internet. The reason to support a game store is that they mantain a place to play that is welcoming. Paying the extra to keep a good store going is kind of the business model of the FLGS.

I'm still incredulous as to how a tournament player who is not otherwise toxic would scare people away from the game. Your example is really about phrasing: X ship sucks and you should never fly it. Thats a pretty rough way to hear about your favie little spaceship, but I find it less greasy than someone extolling the white hot virtues of the Mist Hunter to make a deceptive buck. The key is, again, balance. The truth is some ships are in rough shape, or are harder to use than another. The example you give is really wrong only when they say "never use it." Fly what you want, even in a tournament. Maybe you'll raise some eyebrows. One can be honest about the state of the game, no rose-colored flight goggles on, but still be supportive.

While you may not consider yourself millitantly casual, you would be hard pressed to argue that you are anything but very pro-casual. Thats rad, as long as your supportive. Tournament players can be really supportive of their little slice of the community too. Both are responsible for being decent citizen-gamers.