So the answer is, people are forced with a decision "gid gud" or hop onto lists they don't like to be on the pulse of the meta and still lose regardless, because even Nymranda does not win without a good player behind the dials. Thank you for making our point so clear.

I am happily selling my soul to "gid gud", so I guess I can continue to fly my beloved Imperial Aces. Or ironically maybe I switch to another meta list and fly my beloved gunboats. Apparently the ability to take out Nym in a single-turn makes the whole list a lot less scary. ;-)

20 minutes ago, Astech said:

Cool for that guy, but palp aces is hardly a meta list any more. Sure, it's strong, but it's not NyManda strong, and you have to be a fantastic pilot to do well with it against the actual meta lists.

Most meta lists - like NyManda, Dengaroo, Triple jumps etc involve little actual pilot skill. They're all turrets, so arc doesn't matter. They're high pilot skill, so their repositioning is nearly guaranteed to work and they have so much hul and shields that they're essentially invulnerable to mistakes. You're not playing X-wing then - even if you like it - you're constantly playing the exact same game algorithm because it gets victories.

Yet it still won, disproving that you have to "sell your soul" and play a list you don't like. Yes, sometimes it takes more skill to bring something you love up to the top, but it is still being done. And sometimes, it is already there.

On 1/19/2018 at 8:48 AM, kayarn said:

Basically, cost.

Doing it this way means your expansion packs need to be re-worked when a new one is released. It also makes old stock worth less as they do not contain the new cards,

Not cost, profits, lol. If the rules (cards) were sold independently from the ships, it would require no re-working of model contents. Plenty of, if not most, games do this. FFG has just chosen a profit model based around continual sales of models rather than rules.

FFG specifically ties upgrade cards to the ships to expand sales. The reality is that the average player only needs a handful of models to play and could "finish" their collection fairly quickly. But if you want that sweet new card, you gotta buy newer toys.

On 1/19/2018 at 12:36 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Actually, I don't get this. You can take this game, buy the core set and a couple of ships, and have fun without any complexity or bloat at all until you are ready for it.

What XWM is missing is a better Starter Game that actually has 100 points of materials in the box. Given that many builds are running at 30 points, a 6-ship set could work quite well, and the whole thing could sell for about $100.

And @Marinealver has a very valid point about the JM5K being a noobytrap. That's bad, bad, bad.

What I don't get is new players picking up this game and then expecting to complete (and win!) in a tournament the next week.

Thing about starters is could you fit enough in there to run 100 points? I have yet to see a miniature starter that gave you a standard playable list out of the box other than the tutorial scenarios which are no where near standard. But again accessibility comes in tow things access and cost. With X-wing you could make a competitive standard list easy for only $100. I see many $100 starter sets that don't even come with a standard list for competitive play (cough*armada*cough). Star Trek Attack wing has begun to repackage it's starter set. Now the starter set has 2 klingon ships and 2 federation while a dominion and romulan starter sets have 4 ships for that faction. I am not sure that is the best set up for FFG to follow.

On 1/19/2018 at 9:17 AM, PhantomFO said:

Here's the problem. If you think that only Regionals Top 16 is competitive, then you are clearly not aware of what the Regionals environment is like. There are players who spend hundreds of dollars just traveling to play in as many regional events as possible. They practice for hours, experimenting with deployments and such. You're focusing on what are, conservatively, the top 16 out of a thousand players. The people who make top 16 at one regional will often repeat the feat 2-3 more times at other events in that regional season as they try to take the win.

^THIS^

I often hear the argument that Jumpmasters won worlds twice in a row. Yeah but that was also when FFG moved worlds from their HQ down to Disney, and from Q4 to Q1. So there really wasn't a year between those. Granted I get why the jumpmaster was undercosted for what it could have done. But again using only tournament data as the sole reasoning why something is overpowered or a faction is underpowered is incomplete.

As for new players it is sort of in a rock and a hard place because the best advice we can give to a person just starting is to don't start Scum. Which is ironic because Scum has a lot of good lists and even a Rebel ship which is doing well now. I try to tell players to pick a primary and a secondary faction and get all the ships from both of those first and foremost.

40 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

but that was also when FFG moved worlds from their HQ down to Disney, and from Q4 to Q1.

What are you talking about? Are you conflating the change from November Worlds to May Worlds (Q4 to Q2), both played at the FFG Event Center, with the Coruscant Invitational being played (a completely separate event from Worlds) at Star Wars Celebration in April 2017?

6 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

What are you talking about? Are you conflating the change from November Worlds to May Worlds (Q4 to Q2), both played at the FFG Event Center, with the Coruscant Invitational being played (a completely separate event from Worlds) at Star Wars Celebration in April 2017?

My bad, Q2 but again it wasn't a full year it was only months. given that X-wing has 2 waves a year and at the very least one special the meta could not have had as much opportunity to change as some have claimed unlike previous worlds.

10 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Thing about starters is could you fit enough in there to run 100 points? I have yet to see a miniature starter that gave you a standard playable list out of the box other than the tutorial scenarios which are no where near standard. But again accessibility comes in tow things access and cost. With X-wing you could make a competitive standard list easy for only $100. I see many $100 starter sets that don't even come with a standard list for competitive play (cough*armada*cough). Star Trek Attack wing has begun to repackage it's starter set. Now the starter set has 2 klingon ships and 2 federation while a dominion and romulan starter sets have 4 ships for that faction. I am not sure that is the best set up for FFG to follow.

3 X-Wings vs. 3 Defenders. Give them both a new paint job, like the yellow fins on the defender prototype, and a Green Squadron version of the X-Wing..

Bill it as a Rebels Season 4 Starter. Add X-wing Pilot cards for Hera, Ezra, Green Squadron, et al and the Defender Prototype with the Imperial pilot, Vult Skerris.

It would have new stuff for old players, but would also have ships that would (A.) allow players to play a standard game out of the box, (B.) link into a recent show and (C.) be pretty decent ships for a newbie's collection.

I'm not saying these are great lists, just that you could get to 100 points easily with 3 each:

100 points

Biggs Darklighter (30)
X-Wing (25), Flight-Assist Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Integrated Astromech (0)

Luke Skywalker (35)
X-Wing (28), R2-D2 (4), Marksmanship (3), Integrated Astromech (0)

Wedge Antilles (35)
X-Wing (29), Flight-Assist Astromech (1), Proton Torpedoes (4), Deadeye (1), Guidance Chips (0)

vs.

99 points Pilots

Glaive Squadron Pilot (33) x 3 TIE Defender (34), TIE/x7 (-2), Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

Here's an idea I just had: there was the AGOT 2 player game, and now the Destiny 2 player game. Custom-made offshoot products tailored to providing a good game experience to more casual players.

I wonder what an x-wing version of that would look like. And why it's never been introduced?

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Here's an idea I just had: there was the AGOT 2 player game, and now the Destiny 2 player game. Custom-made offshoot products tailored to providing a good game experience to more casual players.

I wonder what an x-wing version of that would look like. And why it's never been introduced?

Could it be they view the Core Sets as that kind of product?

1 hour ago, SabineKey said:

Could it be they view the Core Sets as that kind of product?

But that's true of the other game that has the 2 player game, they've got core sets too. They're more like bespoke product, at least in AGOTs case it wasnt compatible with the main game and designed to appeal to a different audience.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

But that's true of the other game that has the 2 player game, they've got core sets too. They're more like bespoke product, at least in AGOTs case it wasnt compatible with the main game and designed to appeal to a different audience.

Fair.

The business model of x-wing was fine when it was released. There were only a handful of ships so including upgrade cards was reasonable. The game has grown with over 50+ ships and hundreds of upgrade cards. The business model is no longer viable for those getting into the game but is just ok for veterans who have already purchased everything.

I have mentioned this before, but I think FFG needs to change the business model for a number of reasons:

• Balance
• Player Retention
• Profit
• Sales Info
• Repaints

Balance

The current business model demands with every new ship, there MUST be new upgrade cards. This is very challenging for a number of reasons. First, there are over 50+ ships in the game. When introducing a new ship, you must balance that ship with all the other ships. That task is only going to take longer and longer as the game grows. 2nd, new upgrade cards MUST be balanced with the new ship, the existing ships, and the existing upgrade cards. That process will also take longer and longer as the game grows (hundreds of upgrade cards).

The model that I propose divorces ship expansions from upgrade cards. Why? Its much easier for a development team to balance a new ship and the new pilots with the existing upgrade cards and existing ships without the burden to produce new upgrade cards too. The jumpmaster and scrugg are perfect examples of ships that were poorly designed and rushed due to this business model.

Player Retention

As others have said in this thread, its very expensive to become a tournament x-wing player. The main reason its expensive is due to the business practice of locking upgrade cards to ships. I have seen this in my own community where players just give up because they are tired of 'keeping up' with buying all the ships in order to get the upgrade cards they want. I hear what you say, just borrow the cards or purchase over priced cards on ebay. Well, its not comfortable asking for cards. Also, there is a negative stigma of taking proxies to game night to test out your list (like you are doing something that isn't correct). And of course, proxies are not allowed at tournaments at any level (I have asked at each tournament I attended and the answer has always been NO - that is from just casual store games with 8 players all the way up to regionals). Proxies are not viable unless FFG were to change their proxy rule (which they won't).

Oh, and if a player wants to purchase all the ships at this point, we are talking about $1k USD. That is the PAY WALL and PAY TO WIN that new tournament players see.

Profit

As the game grows, it will become more difficult for new players to enter. This means that the profit potential is limited by the veteran player base. Their revenue is derived from selling expansions. We are seeing that the game breaks with every new expansion due to balancing issues. We also see that it takes 6 months for FFG to release FAQs to fix balance. I don't see this trend changing. So not only will new players be driven away due to the cost but also vetern players who are tired of waiting for FAQs to fix broken OP lists are driven away too.

Not only that, but many players just want to play a single faction. Those players are forced to purchase ships outside of their faction to get upgrade cards. This is bad for the player because they have to buy ships they do not want. Its bad for FFG because its another reason that players will want to leave the game.

If FFG were to sell upgrade cards in card packs (NO GAMBLING), this frees FFG to making nice profits from selling cards. Card stock is cheap as chips. Players will still buy ships that they like. It enables everyone to have the cards they want at a much cheaper price. FFG sells more cards. Its ok for FFG to sell less ships because there is a much higher profit margin on cards.

Sales Intel

Something that FFG will struggle with right now is WHY a custom purchases an expansion pack. For instance, the punisher expansion may sell very well but why? Twin Ion Engine + Extra Munitions upgrade cards perhaps. There is zero motivation for FFG as of now to fix the TIE Punisher because the expansion sells. However, if the upgrades were not included in the TIE Punisher and its not selling well, this will give FFG important information about the ship. Something is very wrong with it and will give them the motivation to fix it or to just abandon it altogether. Their choice. Basically, FFG will get the information THEY need in order to help them decide what needs fixing or what is selling well.

Repaints

If upgrade cards are not included in the ships, FFG could put out repaints (maybe once a month and limited - ie ffg won't manufacture the same paint scheme again) of a ship. The repaints are a business model which can keep the game going well into the future without having to design new upgrade cards or new pilots. We have already seen repaints of various ships like the TIE Defender, T-70 x-wing, etc and those all sell well. People love repaints and I think there is an untapped market for FFG to fill and profit off of. But their current business model doesn't allow for that.

Overview

I propose FFG to change their business model to save the game. This model will increase FFGs profits. This will increase player retention and player happiness.

10 minutes ago, Rexler Brath said:

Repaints

If upgrade cards are not included in the ships, FFG could put out repaints (maybe once a month and limited - ie ffg won't manufacture the same paint scheme again) of a ship. The repaints are a business model which can keep the game going well into the future without having to design new upgrade cards or new pilots. We have already seen repaints of various ships like the TIE Defender, T-70 x-wing, etc and those all sell well. People love repaints and I think there is an untapped market for FFG to fill and profit off of. But their current business model doesn't allow for that.

What if they released limited edition paint jobs with the cards that people are using specifically for that ship that are otherwise hard/expensive to find? (I.E. a T-65 or T-70 repaint with FAA and IA, Defender with x7 and /D, Y Wing with TLT, etc.)

2 minutes ago, impspy said:

What if they released limited edition paint jobs with the cards that people are using specifically for that ship that are otherwise hard/expensive to find? (I.E. a T-65 or T-70 repaint with FAA and IA, Defender with x7 and /D, Y Wing with TLT, etc.)

I would be cool with that.

I got into this game in the Summer of 2016. I had picked up a former player's kit which consisted of 2 x core sets and all the wave 1 and 2 ships (including some duplicates) for $70. I started playing in a weekly FLGS casual league and got hooked on the game and the social scene. I started buying hard into the game system but couldn't afford everything so I had to pick and choose. I was interested enough in the competitive scene that I did buy some ships strictly for the upgrade cards and played in one tournament placing 5th out of 16 and had a blast. But then family and work obligations took my bandwidth and time for weekly league play away and I stopped buying and playing all together.

That was a year ago. I have not kept up on the meta or releases and realized that it was the social aspect of X-Wing that was the real draw for me. Without it I lost interest in the game. I haven't played but haven't sold my stuff either (it is a good game after all) and last night I played for the first time since quitting league play a year ago. A buddy of mine picked up the FA core set at a gaming convention a few weeks ago. He got jacked on the price which miffed me when he told me what he payed. He's been playing it with his 9 year old son and asking me some basic questions of tactics, what to buy, why X-Wings get blown up so easily, etc. I told him to not buy a thing until we got a chance to get together so I could teach them the 100pt skirmish game. So last night I took all my stuff over for them to look at including play mat, laser for checking arcs (they loved that the most), etc. First game we ran was a thematic Trench Run variant with PTL Wedge and Luke both w/ IA and R2 integrated and R2-D2 respectively and Biggs with a hull upgrade against a purposely gimped Vader (no ATC or title) with Predator and EU + Howl, Mithil, Backstabber and an AP. We paired off 2 v 2 (I was teaching 3 players) and I took Vader so they could get a bit of experience combating an ace without the ace being OP. I taught movement and jousting concepts, how to block, how to focus fire, action economy, etc. It was a blast and pretty close coming down, thematically enough, to Luke losing to Vader, who had lost shields and had 1 crit on him, and Backstabber w/ 2 in the paint. Everyone had fun and then we played another game (kid went to bed) where I showed them some more advanced pilot + upgrade synergies. Unfortunately that one wasn't close (2 v me) due to pilot skill difference which is just the reality of the game when someone who has a fair amount of experience plays brand new players. However, everyone had fun and were asking me a lot of questions. It made me happy because I had missed this about the game ... the social enthusiasm that is.

Despite all this however, I advised my buddy not to invest in this game system at this time. He intends to play this casually with his young son because they like Star Wars and spaceships, not because they want to venture into the competitive scene. I advised them to get together with me to play or borrow my stuff if they want. I do like this game but I reiterated a lot of the OPs sentiment to my buddy regarding entry barrier for new players. Play with my stuff which is more than enough for not only thematic skirmishes they'll recognize from the movies but some balanced classic meta battles which should be a lot of fun for them. If they like the game enough, I'll tell them to be patient and keep their eyes open for an inexpensive entry point. The game is popular and people and getting in and out all the time. A lot of X-Wing kits show up on our local craiglist (where I got mine) and then there's always ebay and word of mouth from other gamers.

I don't play X-Wing actively and stopped buying but FFGs still getting my money. I recently started buying and playing IA for my Star Wars fix which works way better for me right now because I can include my son and his cousins in a cooperative group campaign experience. We're having a lot of fun with that.

On 1/22/2018 at 4:41 PM, impspy said:

What if they released limited edition paint jobs with the cards that people are using specifically for that ship that are otherwise hard/expensive to find? (I.E. a T-65 or T-70 repaint with FAA and IA, Defender with x7 and /D, Y Wing with TLT, etc.)

not great because most ships you only want one of, hence shouldnt need to buy upgrades for. i dont want to buy a decimator once a year because i need a stupid card.

my play group hasnt used cards in 2 years anyway, we just fly with the apps.

18 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

not great because most ships you only want one of, hence shouldnt need to buy upgrades for. i dont want to buy a decimator once a year because i need a stupid card.

my play group hasnt used cards in 2 years anyway, we just fly with the apps.

I agree with you mate. I only want 1 copy of some ships and zero copies of the majority (IE, I only purchase my faction ship which of course is the best faction: The Galactic Empire). :-P

How did you get your play group to accept using apps for the list?

1 hour ago, RevJJ said:

He intends to play this casually with his young son because they like Star Wars and spaceships, not because they want to venture into the competitive scene.

If that's the case, they can buy only the ships they like, and proxy every upgrade card in the game via an online builder.

Like Defenders? Buy the blister ship, and proxy the titles from the Veterans box. Wanna run Palps? Buy a Lambda and proxy the card from the Raider.

55 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

If that's the case, they can buy only the ships they like, and proxy every upgrade card in the game via an online builder.

Like Defenders? Buy the blister ship, and proxy the titles from the Veterans box. Wanna run Palps? Buy a Lambda and proxy the card from the Raider.

Exactly. Which is why I want them to try my kit first. They can try stuff out for free and see what they fancy before they buy.

On 1/19/2018 at 11:05 AM, s1ickrick said:

I have been playing X-Wing for 6 months now and have a few thoughts I would like to share. First I think this game is amazing and has one of the best communities of any game scene. Everybody has been very welcoming and helpful. To be honest it is one of the main reasons I even gave this game a try. In my opinion the community is the only thing keeping this game alive. I am a competive person like most and I play to win. Sure I have fun and I Fly Casual. I don’t mind losing because I take that as a learning experience since I have only been playing for a short time and it win help me win more down the road. The only problem I see for this game is the King Ogre at the top of the mountain. How does a new player enter a game scene where most of the players have been playing for 4+ years? I bought a core, a mat, HotR, 4x B-Wing(my fav), Arc 170 And VT-49. Figuring I could know be competive. How naive I was. You can fly any ship you buy right out the box, but without those upgrade cards from other ships to make it competitive, it just gets blown off the mat. Sure you can proxy, but not at a tournament. I then proceeded to buy more ships thinking I could make my self competive. K-Wing, YT-2400, Tie/D, Tie Fighter, Imperial Veterans, Tie Advanced, Guns for Hire, Auztuck, Tie Bomber etc. surely I had enough ships now to field a competitive list for Regionals. Not even close. Without the Upgrade Cards from ships I have no desire to fly or just plan suck. You can’t play competitively. So being confined to playing casually, eventually I am afraid I will lose interest. The King Ogre only wants whales in this game, somebody willing to buy 3 U-Wings to get the Expertise cards. Where does that leave the health of the game. You need to keep adding new players as you move forward to keep the community alive. I see no way to play competively without becoming a whale. Not everybody can spend 1000+ dollars to fly plastic spaceships around. How does the King Ogre keep the game alive without adding fresh blood?

Buy singles cards from ebay

On 1/19/2018 at 10:05 AM, s1ickrick said:

I have been playing X-Wing for 6 months now and have a few thoughts I would like to share. First I think this game is amazing and has one of the best communities of any game scene. Everybody has been very welcoming and helpful. To be honest it is one of the main reasons I even gave this game a try. In my opinion the community is the only thing keeping this game alive. I am a competive person like most and I play to win. Sure I have fun and I Fly Casual. I don’t mind losing because I take that as a learning experience since I have only been playing for a short time and it win help me win more down the road. The only problem I see for this game is the King Ogre at the top of the mountain. How does a new player enter a game scene where most of the players have been playing for 4+ years? I bought a core, a mat, HotR, 4x B-Wing(my fav), Arc 170 And VT-49. Figuring I could know be competive. How naive I was. You can fly any ship you buy right out the box, but without those upgrade cards from other ships to make it competitive, it just gets blown off the mat. Sure you can proxy, but not at a tournament. I then proceeded to buy more ships thinking I could make my self competive. K-Wing, YT-2400, Tie/D, Tie Fighter, Imperial Veterans, Tie Advanced, Guns for Hire, Auztuck, Tie Bomber etc. surely I had enough ships now to field a competitive list for Regionals. Not even close. Without the Upgrade Cards from ships I have no desire to fly or just plan suck. You can’t play competitively. So being confined to playing casually, eventually I am afraid I will lose interest. The King Ogre only wants whales in this game, somebody willing to buy 3 U-Wings to get the Expertise cards. Where does that leave the health of the game. You need to keep adding new players as you move forward to keep the community alive. I see no way to play competively without becoming a whale. Not everybody can spend 1000+ dollars to fly plastic spaceships around. How does the King Ogre keep the game alive without adding fresh blood?

Please, please learn to use paragraphs correctly. I'd be glad to read your thoughts, but I'm not dismantling that wall of text brick by brick.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

If that's the case, they can buy only the ships they like, and proxy every upgrade card in the game via an online builder.

Like Defenders? Buy the blister ship, and proxy the titles from the Veterans box. Wanna run Palps? Buy a Lambda and proxy the card from the Raider.

That's how I roll.

I buy the ships I like (which basically is <is it Imperial>), then I build lists here, and print off the detailed list. I don't even bother to break out the cards anymore. I just designate tokens/counters/beads/etc. to mark the status of expendable/exhaustible/etc. cards.

There are a few players in my playgroup that don't have full collections, for casual play they bring a printout, for tournament play they e-mail me and ask to borrow some cards and I bring them.

If your local group is an anyway friendly there should be no issue with not owning the cards you want to use.

On 21/01/2018 at 3:22 PM, SEApocalypse said:

So the answer is, people are forced with a decision "gid gud" or hop onto lists they don't like to be on the pulse of the meta and still lose regardless, because even Nymranda does not win without a good player behind the dials. Thank you for making our point so clear.

I am happily selling my soul to "gid gud", so I guess I can continue to fly my beloved Imperial Aces. Or ironically maybe I switch to another meta list and fly my beloved gunboats. Apparently the ability to take out Nym in a single-turn makes the whole list a lot less scary. ;-)

Well, if a brand new player has set their sights on winning that store's next casual tournament (say, 16 players) they're in for a big surprise, since the skill required to win goes up with the number of players. They've got to set their sights lower at first - say, not last in their first tournament, or win a single game.

In my first torunament I destroyed a single ship all day (and happened to win that game) thus achieving my 1 win goal. I won my second (8 player) tournament flying Etahn, Biggs and Horton (back in wave 6). The skill curve is extreme if you're willing to analyse your games rather than grumble about more experienced players unfairly beating you.

This is a far worse problem in numerous sports, because some kids have been training 4 hourrs a day since they were three to do a single thing, then one decides to go into the competitive scene and gets thrashed, with absolutely no chance of winning anything in one's life. Life sucks, but X-wing does a credible job of keeping significantly less experienced players involved.

14 minutes ago, Icelom said:

There are a few players in my playgroup that don't have full collections, for casual play they bring a printout, for tournament play they e-mail me and ask to borrow some cards and I bring them.

If your local group is an anyway friendly there should be no issue with not owning the cards you want to use.

And if they do, back away slowly. Do not make eye contact. Make it to the door and then RUUUUUNNNN!