4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

No, that completely ignores the list building and metagame portion of things, especially ironic considering this thread is primarily about having the materials for proper list building.

Tomorrow I'm not taking Nymranda even though it will be legal at my regionals because I think it relies on the broken combo that should not, and likely soon will not, exist. Not to mention it's awful to play against and that's not something I want to subject my opponents to. I'm not doing that even though playing it would maximise my chances of winning and it likely means I have zero chance of taking 1st. But that doesn't mean I won't still be taking a very good list, trying to win all my games, or harboring some hope of making top 16.

I agree the thread has lost its way. I don’t understand how trying to win every game you play and maybe make Top 16 is not the same as trying to win Regionals, no matter how unrealistic.

So what was this thread about again?

54 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Some of us play because it is a game set in our favorite universe. Shared with friends. Over a bowl of pretzels and beer. As a way to kill a cold winter night. "Winning" never entered our minds.

Me right here! I lose every single time but I come back to play more because of the reason described above.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

If you’re trying to win all your games doesn’t that mean you’re trying to win Regionals?

No not at all. I’m going there with a few goals, some more realistic than others.

Goal 1 is to have fun playing 6 games of X wing against top quality opponents. (Easily met)

Goal 2 is to make it 3-3 (rather unrealistic)

Goal 3 is to not lose all my games (fingers crossed!)

If your goal is to go to a regionals after just starting the hobby and making the cut -good for you! But to achieve that goal, you’re going to have to invest time AND money to do so.

1 minute ago, s1ickrick said:

I agree the thread has lost its way. I don’t understand how trying to win every game you play and maybe make Top 16 is not the same as trying to win Regionals, no matter how unrealistic.

Because I'm intentionally taking a list that makes that a virtual impossibility. I am flat out not trying to win regionals. If I was actually trying then I'd take the best meta list available. But winning the event isn't my number one concern, having a good time is. Doing my best and winning as many games as possible once I'm there is how I'll have a good time, not the same thing.

Separate the individual game from the overarching metagame. I'm trying to win the former but not the later and you need to win at both to win a regionals.

You are going to quickly find that the super focus on winning attitude is a minority opinion in the X-wing community. There are sadly a few too many Win-at-all-costs and militant casual players in the community, but for the most part, we are a fairly friendly community. Winning and losing doesn't seem to be the major focus for most.

And really, winning isn't important to you, because, as you said, you want to win with the ships you want. The game will never be as perfectly balanced as that. Make your piece with that, or give up.

I am perfectly fine being a middling player in my local scene, as larger tournaments are not really something I can handle at the moment.

Hey, I Fly Casual. Not a win at all cost player. But I do want to win. But that doesn’t mean I am going to call a Marshall over every time someone bumps his ship. And I don’t fly the cheese squads. What I will do is fly to the best of my ability every time I get on the table and try to win the match.

Something I've experienced in this game: while it can be expensive to buy upgrades, many players are willing to loan their extra copies to other folks at official events, and in casual play, no one minds if folks proxy upgrades. When I was starting the game, I printed out a bunch of black and white copies of cards I wanted to use, but didn't have the sets and official upgrades for. Many folks will print out squad lists with the text of upgrades on them, rather than digging out the actual cards.

At the same time, though, I'll admit that I really dislike doing that. It irks me, tugs at me, when I want to proxy copies of, say, Flight Assist Astromech. As much as I say "just proxy/borrow," I don't fully embody that advice myself.

I'll also add: I really wish when I was starting I could have bought a pack with all the upgrade cards (in a nice box? with all the plastic sleeves? whatever basic 'value added' trick they'd have to do, so long as the total price tag wouldn't be unreasonable) from FFG. Or at least all the cards from some span of waves. Maybe put like 3 to 5 waves in a single box. 4 copies of every non-unique upgrade.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Something I've experienced in this game: while it can be expensive to buy upgrades, many players are willing to loan their extra copies to other folks at official events, and in casual play, no one minds if folks proxy upgrades. When I was starting the game, I printed out a bunch of black and white copies of cards I wanted to use, but didn't have the sets and official upgrades for. Many folks will print out squad lists with the text of upgrades on them, rather than digging out the actual cards.

At the same time, though, I'll admit that I really dislike doing that. It irks me, tugs at me, when I want to proxy copies of, say, Flight Assist Astromech. As much as I say "just proxy/borrow," I don't fully embody that advice myself.

I'll also add: I really wish I could have bought a pack with all the upgrade cards (in a nice box? with all the plastic sleeves? whatever basic 'value added' trick they'd have to do, so long as the total price tag wouldn't be unreasonable) from FFG when I was starting. Or at least all the cards from some span of waves. Maybe put like 3 to 5 waves in a single box. 4 copies of every non-unique upgrade.

I like it.

Just from the players in my meta. Most of them will give newbies a few extra cards they have laying around to get them up and running. And at the least they will let them borrow some cards for a tournament if needed.

8 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

Magic is a terrible analogy here. Wizards only needs a printer to send those. FFG needs to design and build model sculpts and paint mockups for the factory in addition to the rest of the design process. Wizards also makes a lot of money on their collectible card packs, which generally don't guarantee you everything you need due to randomness. You have to buy a lot of packs in order to actually get the competitive deck that you want, especially if your deck is going to include 4 copies of specific rare cards.

With X-Wing, you can know ahead of time exactly how much you need to buy to build the list you want, and which expansions they come in. That will help you plan your purchases accordingly.

completely disagree.

you cant claim that the model increases the cost of the cards when the subject is additional cards independant of the model. I can get cards printed for 5 cents each as a small order buyer. FFGs buying power can get cards printed for less than half that.

an extra 5 to 10 cards in each expansion could have meant imperial players didnt need to buy 5 starvipers for autothrusters, and would have cost FFG an extra 5 to 10 cents. I forgive them trying to make a profit, but FFG business practices are getting bad.

just look at the scale change from I.A. to Legions... only purpose was to sell dudes twice

14 hours ago, s1ickrick said:

I have been playing X-Wing for 6 months now

6 months isnt enough time to become a max chevron pilot. Not until you can think 3 moves ahead and figure out where each of your ships will be, across multiple possibilities and time space paradoxes. Silly young padawan, much to learn you have.

18 hours ago, s1ickrick said:

I have been playing X-Wing for 6 months now and have a few thoughts I would like to share. First I think this game is amazing and has one of the best communities of any game scene. Everybody has been very welcoming and helpful. To be honest it is one of the main reasons I even gave this game a try. In my opinion the community is the only thing keeping this game alive. I am a competive person like most and I play to win. Sure I have fun and I Fly Casual. I don’t mind losing because I take that as a learning experience since I have only been playing for a short time and it win help me win more down the road. The only problem I see for this game is the King Ogre at the top of the mountain. How does a new player enter a game scene where most of the players have been playing for 4+ years? I bought a core, a mat, HotR, 4x B-Wing(my fav), Arc 170 And VT-49. Figuring I could know be competive. How naive I was. You can fly any ship you buy right out the box, but without those upgrade cards from other ships to make it competitive, it just gets blown off the mat. Sure you can proxy, but not at a tournament. I then proceeded to buy more ships thinking I could make my self competive. K-Wing, YT-2400, Tie/D, Tie Fighter, Imperial Veterans, Tie Advanced, Guns for Hire, Auztuck, Tie Bomber etc. surely I had enough ships now to field a competitive list for Regionals. Not even close. Without the Upgrade Cards from ships I have no desire to fly or just plan suck. You can’t play competitively. So being confined to playing casually, eventually I am afraid I will lose interest. The King Ogre only wants whales in this game, somebody willing to buy 3 U-Wings to get the Expertise cards. Where does that leave the health of the game. You need to keep adding new players as you move forward to keep the community alive. I see no way to play competively without becoming a whale. Not everybody can spend 1000+ dollars to fly plastic spaceships around. How does the King Ogre keep the game alive without adding fresh blood?

Imagine the first year of the game, where the only good list was a TIE swarm. It's always going to be a problem with this game, and it'll get worse as it goes on, for the top 0.1% of players. Another barrier is being the kind of player that wants to fly meta lists - they're boring, and definitively easy to fly.

Aiming to win large tournaments means you have to essentially sell your soul and fly something you don't like for at least a month prior to the event, doing the same things over and over. On the other hand, aiming for arbitrary success, like a Win/Loss ratio of more than 1, allows you to fly exciting lists with what you have at hand.

I won my first tournament in wave 7 flying Etahn, a B-wing and biggs, and lost a single ship all day. You can win with anything - you just need to be a good enough player to overcome the gap between your list and your opponent's. Six months isn't really enough time to do that, but give it some time and you'll be able to win with less broken lists.

How is this FFG's fault? Two waves just dropped together and people are already asking for more - the demand is there so they are providing supply. Good for FFG for making a game worth playing and worth releasing new content.

23 hours ago, s1ickrick said:

I see no way to play competively without becoming a whale.

And that is why you fail. Seriously. We have a world champion with a $60 list and FFG themselves seem to balance their card interaction around a $200 price tag. If your list is more expensive than $300, it most likely is garbage …

FFG does not need whales to be competitive, FFG is creating the whales by changing the meta and requiring with each new wave some new investment to stay up to date on the newest upgrades. Most competitive lists work just fine with the rule of one, so you going ahead and buying 4 b-wings is one of the worst shopping strategies in the current game.
Currently big tournament winners are again way below $200, especially if you consider that you only need one of the tree Trajectory Simulators in the Superfortress Bomber expansion and those are about $5 each on ebay.

So basically, you need to have a plan. And you need to spend some money with each change in the meta/new wave to adjust your plan. But in general focusing on making one list work is rather cheap. Having tons of upgrades will not make your list building any better. Having the right upgrades does.

4 hours ago, Astech said:

Aiming to win large tournaments means you have to essentially sell your soul and fly something you don't like for at least a month prior to the event, doing the same things over and over.

Odd how Duncan Howard is still winning tournaments with his beloved Aces. ;-)

5 hours ago, Astech said:

Aiming to win large tournaments means you have to essentially sell your soul and fly something you don't like for at least a month prior to the event, doing the same things over and over.

I believe this to be objectively false. Just because something is top of the meta doesn't mean someone can't genuinely enjoy it. Look at the guy who won the PAX South System Open. He won with a Palp Aces list. If you listen to the podcast he is a part of (Birmingham Barons), you will see he enjoys that play style.

I've dabled with meta lists before, but because I liked the ships involved.

On 1/19/2018 at 11:05 AM, s1ickrick said:

I have been playing X-Wing for 6 months now and have a few thoughts I would like to share. First I think this game is amazing and has one of the best communities of any game scene. Everybody has been very welcoming and helpful. To be honest it is one of the main reasons I even gave this game a try. In my opinion the community is the only thing keeping this game alive. I am a competive person like most and I play to win. Sure I have fun and I Fly Casual. I don’t mind losing because I take that as a learning experience since I have only been playing for a short time and it win help me win more down the road. The only problem I see for this game is the King Ogre at the top of the mountain. How does a new player enter a game scene where most of the players have been playing for 4+ years? I bought a core, a mat, HotR, 4x B-Wing(my fav), Arc 170 And VT-49. Figuring I could know be competive. How naive I was. You can fly any ship you buy right out the box, but without those upgrade cards from other ships to make it competitive, it just gets blown off the mat. Sure you can proxy, but not at a tournament. I then proceeded to buy more ships thinking I could make my self competive. K-Wing, YT-2400, Tie/D, Tie Fighter, Imperial Veterans, Tie Advanced, Guns for Hire, Auztuck, Tie Bomber etc. surely I had enough ships now to field a competitive list for Regionals. Not even close. Without the Upgrade Cards from ships I have no desire to fly or just plan suck. You can’t play competitively. So being confined to playing casually, eventually I am afraid I will lose interest. The King Ogre only wants whales in this game, somebody willing to buy 3 U-Wings to get the Expertise cards. Where does that leave the health of the game. You need to keep adding new players as you move forward to keep the community alive. I see no way to play competively without becoming a whale. Not everybody can spend 1000+ dollars to fly plastic spaceships around. How does the King Ogre keep the game alive without adding fresh blood?

There are, and always have been, cheap ways of getting into the game competitively. I've been recommending top-tier lists with minimal investment to new players for years. There were brobots, certain versions of Palp Aces (ebaying Palpatine), etc. Today, there's Auzituck lists and Dash/Miranda. I actually strongly disagree with your initial post and think FFG has done an excellent job of making the game competitively accessible to new players.

35 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Odd how Duncan Howard is still winning tournaments with his beloved Aces. ;-)

Not to mention Andrew Bunn with his beloved Parattani.

And then there is the kid with Corran Horn.

7 hours ago, Astech said:

Aiming to win large tournaments means you have to essentially sell your soul and fly something you don't like for at least a month prior to the event, doing the same things over and over. On the other hand, aiming for arbitrary success, like a Win/Loss ratio of more than 1, allows you to fly exciting lists with what you have at hand.

Why are you flying something you don’t like? There’s more than one meta list. Especially right now - with the anomaly of the last regionals weekend with a ton of Miranda Nym we’ve had a pretty diverse meta.

Theres plenty of archetypes that are doing well, and they all have different play styles. Find one you like and go for it. There are meta lists that bore me, and there are ones that I enjoy.

17 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

completely disagree.

you cant claim that the model increases the cost of the cards when the subject is additional cards independant of the model. I can get cards printed for 5 cents each as a small order buyer. FFGs buying power can get cards printed for less than half that.

an extra 5 to 10 cards in each expansion could have meant imperial players didnt need to buy 5 starvipers for autothrusters, and would have cost FFG an extra 5 to 10 cents. I forgive them trying to make a profit, but FFG business practices are getting bad.

just look at the scale change from I.A. to Legions... only purpose was to sell dudes twice

All of this is just an artifact of the evolution of the game. . .the "right cards" are not with the "right ships" only because of the order in which things were developed for the game. And I see no effort being made to shuffle cards around, although this would be a nice long-term project (e.g., shuffle AT into the Squints expac).

OTOH, none of this matters if you can proxy. And you only can't proxy in tournaments.

Since tournament play is what completely drives design, it may as well drive sales, too.

OP, do you want each pack to be updated, every wave, for the cards that have been released that work well with that ship?

That hurts long-term players who buys ships by wave, who spend more for less. That hurts FFG's bottom line needlessly. Every pack is not required to field a competitive list, and individual cards can resell. Or borrow the card from a friend, if you have players in your area. Shifting metas and FAQ updates change what cards are effective in the game, so it would be difficult to do what you are asking.

This is a product of a game that has evolved in complexity. We've made it to Wave 13. I'm not sure how what you are asking is achievable.

Quad Wookiees will cost you $60 plus the price of a starter set for templates, dice, and damage deck.

Or are you just complaining that the stuff you *want* to fly is expensive?

12 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Odd how Duncan Howard is still winning tournaments with his beloved Aces. ;-)

Aces that laugh at any single mistake, have outstanding agility, firepower and pilot skill. Weird.

12 hours ago, SabineKey said:

I believe this to be objectively false. Just because something is top of the meta doesn't mean someone can't genuinely enjoy it. Look at the guy who won the PAX South System Open. He won with a Palp Aces list. If you listen to the podcast he is a part of (Birmingham Barons), you will see he enjoys that play style.

I've dabled with meta lists before, but because I liked the ships involved.

Cool for that guy, but palp aces is hardly a meta list any more. Sure, it's strong, but it's not NyManda strong, and you have to be a fantastic pilot to do well with it against the actual meta lists.

Most meta lists - like NyManda, Dengaroo, Triple jumps etc involve little actual pilot skill. They're all turrets, so arc doesn't matter. They're high pilot skill, so their repositioning is nearly guaranteed to work and they have so much hul and shields that they're essentially invulnerable to mistakes. You're not playing X-wing then - even if you like it - you're constantly playing the exact same game algorithm because it gets victories.

9 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Why are you flying something you don’t like? There’s more than one meta list. Especially right now - with the anomaly of the last regionals weekend with a ton of Miranda Nym we’ve had a pretty diverse meta.

Theres plenty of archetypes that are doing well, and they all have different play styles. Find one you like and go for it. There are meta lists that bore me, and there are ones that I enjoy.

I'd love to fly Luke Skywalker, or Wedge, or Corran, but they're all PS-sniped before they get a shot off by ships that cost comparable amounts to them. Archetypes may be doing well, but individual ships are significantly lacking. There's perhaps 5 ships in the game that are tier 1 right now.