The hyperbole in the OP is strong.

3 hours ago, DicesonFire said:

The game makes the Community. The rules, the mechanics. People like to complain, but Xwing is really healthy if you compare with other competitive scenes.

About your complains. Your complain is just "the game is too expensive". That's just it.

What you want? Free rules, free cards, buy only the miniatures you want? Just because you don't want to expend money?

Your complain is the same: "I want to be competitie useing only the core set. Because I like to fly only tie fighters or Xwings"

Or you suggest that every expansion should be shipped with all upgrades that ship will ever use.
Stagnant play, nice.

Really, I don't get it.

yeah, you sound like you really dont get it. maybe your parents give you 1000 bucks a week allowance, but most people have to earn money for their purchases. those purchases, the expansions, should be viable as the packages are sold. cardstock cards cost about 2 cents each to print, so expecting a few more in each expansion is reasonable. consider a 60 card premade magic deck which retails for what, 12 bucks these days? and there are ussually foils etc.

If you ever own your own business, you'll discover that there is a balance between making a profit and meeting your customers needs. if you gouge them or provide poor product/service, you'll lose your customer base over time. FFG probably plans to kill this game in a few years before launching another Star wars dogfight game with different models and/or rules so they can sell us the same ships again. when that stops working, theyll trade the license to another company.

point is, we dont owe them any more than they owe us: a reasonable bussiness transaction

50 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

I am sure most of you disagree with me. You have been playing for along time and spent LOTS of money that is already collecting dust. When’s the last time you flew that Punisher in a competive scene? So you feel that’s what everybody else should have to do to be competive. I understand your point. But my point was that kind of thinking and business model won’t bring New Players at a fast enough rate to keep the community growing.

There are many more ways to enjoy these ships then flying them. Check out the painting and modification forum. I'm considering buying a second U-wing just because the thing was so much fun to paint, and looks amazing. I'm at a school with no real way to fly, but none of my fleet is gathering dust. The monetary cost of the expansions is a small part of what top players pay, they also spend countless hours practicing and perfecting their tactics. That effort is what separates the skilled players from the beginners.

As to your second point, new players don't often start playing because of the competitive scene. They start playing because X-wings and Tie Fighters and the falcon are cool. Not every player wants to be competitive, in fact most probably aren't even aware there is a competitive scene.

Well, I just buy the ships I like and I play with them. Take them to the tournament and see if my skill in flying those ships is better then other guys with other ships...

3 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah, you sound like you really dont get it. maybe your parents give you 1000 bucks a week allowance, but most people have to earn money for their purchases. those purchases, the expansions, should be viable as the packages are sold. cardstock cards cost about 2 cents each to print, so expecting a few more in each expansion is reasonable. consider a 60 card premade magic deck which retails for what, 12 bucks these days? and there are ussually foils etc.

If you ever own your own business, you'll discover that there is a balance between making a profit and meeting your customers needs. if you gouge them or provide poor product/service, you'll lose your customer base over time. FFG probably plans to kill this game in a few years before launching another Star wars dogfight game with different models and/or rules so they can sell us the same ships again. when that stops working, theyll trade the license to another company.

point is, we dont owe them any more than they owe us: a reasonable bussiness transaction

WORD!!

3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I get the bloat and complexity complaints. It can be hard for a new player to wrap their head around all the interactions the present card set presents and not accidentally fall into, what to a veteran is, an obvious trap. But from a materials perspective by and large the community has your back.

Actually, I don't get this. You can take this game, buy the core set and a couple of ships, and have fun without any complexity or bloat at all until you are ready for it.

What XWM is missing is a better Starter Game that actually has 100 points of materials in the box. Given that many builds are running at 30 points, a 6-ship set could work quite well, and the whole thing could sell for about $100.

And @Marinealver has a very valid point about the JM5K being a noobytrap. That's bad, bad, bad.

What I don't get is new players picking up this game and then expecting to complete (and win!) in a tournament the next week.

I never said I expect to win. I said I play to win. The chance of winning is why we play and what makes it fun. I believe every ship should be competitive and all players should have access to the important upgrade cards with a reasonable investment. That would bring more new players to the game.

I kinda miss the ? and ?.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Actually, I don't get this. You can take this game, buy the core set and a couple of ships, and have fun without any complexity or bloat at all until you are ready for it.

Because like it or not the reality is that most players only have some level of control over who they play and what that person's list contains. If I show up to game night and there is an odd man waiting for a game then I'm playing him and the list he already has setup. If I decide I don't like his list because it's too complex and has too many new cards then he might rebuild into something else but the most likely outcome is that I simply don't play until another game is finished. And even then those 2 people are also likely to be running the latest (not necessarily the best but the newest and shiniest stuff they just bought) and want to get another game in with their limited free time instead of creating a new dumbed down list on the spot.

Sidestepping it all relies on having a friend group to play against in your basement as opposed to a FLGS group to play against in store but that's not reality for a lot of people. Whether for good or ill almost everyone is in the deep end of the pool from the start.

I’m wondering if quite a few newer players are switching from MTG? Doesn’t MTG sell decks that are pre made? That are kinda competitive?

17 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah, you sound like you really dont get it. maybe your parents give you 1000 bucks a week allowance, but most people have to earn money for their purchases. those purchases, the expansions, should be viable as the packages are sold.

They are. Unless you demand to play in a competitive environment, thus requiring all the latest upgrades. In which case you have created your own wall to climb.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

The chance of winning is why we play and what makes it fun.

Some of us play because it is a game set in our favorite universe. Shared with friends. Over a bowl of pretzels and beer. As a way to kill a cold winter night. "Winning" never entered our minds.

21 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

yeah, you sound like you really dont get it. maybe your parents give you 1000 bucks a week allowance, but most people have to earn money for their purchases. those purchases, the expansions, should be viable as the packages are sold. cardstock cards cost about 2 cents each to print, so expecting a few more in each expansion is reasonable. consider a 60 card premade magic deck which retails for what, 12 bucks these days? and there are ussually foils etc.

If you ever own your own business, you'll discover that there is a balance between making a profit and meeting your customers needs. if you gouge them or provide poor product/service, you'll lose your customer base over time. FFG probably plans to kill this game in a few years before launching another Star wars dogfight game with different models and/or rules so they can sell us the same ships again. when that stops working, theyll trade the license to another company.

point is, we dont owe them any more than they owe us: a reasonable bussiness transaction

Magic is a terrible analogy here. Wizards only needs a printer to send those. FFG needs to design and build model sculpts and paint mockups for the factory in addition to the rest of the design process. Wizards also makes a lot of money on their collectible card packs, which generally don't guarantee you everything you need due to randomness. You have to buy a lot of packs in order to actually get the competitive deck that you want, especially if your deck is going to include 4 copies of specific rare cards.

With X-Wing, you can know ahead of time exactly how much you need to buy to build the list you want, and which expansions they come in. That will help you plan your purchases accordingly.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

They are. Unless you demand to play in a competitive environment, thus requiring all the latest upgrades. In which case you have created your own wall to climb.

Some of us play because it is a game set in our favorite universe. Shared with friends. Over a bowl of pretzels and beer. As a way to kill a cold winter night. "Winning" never entered our minds.

That’s not competitively. Which this post is about. Show me one person at regionals that isn’t there to WIN. No I just drove 2 hours so my B-wings could get harpooned off the table but it was fun and I am not here to actually win. I just wanted to give away my entrance fee.

4 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

That’s not competitively. Which this post is about. Show me one person at regionals that isn’t there to WIN. No I just drove 2 hours so my B-wings could get harpooned off the table but it was fun and I am not here to actually win. I just wanted to give away my entrance fee.

Please change the title of the thread. It is misleading to the point of clickbait. "Cost of entry to the competitive scene is too high" would be more appropriate.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

That’s not competitively. Which this post is about. Show me one person at regionals that isn’t there to WIN. No I just drove 2 hours so my B-wings could get harpooned off the table but it was fun and I am not here to actually win. I just wanted to give away my entrance fee.

Weirdly there are a fair few people like that at every regionals. I mean they'll grouse about the golden ages when B-wings were good but they also show up knowing full well that they're not anymore and that they have virtually no chance of doing better than 3-3. Instead it's just a chance to get in 6 games in a single day and see a bunch of people they haven't seen in a while.

For many of us the entry fee is inconsequential next to the opportunity cost in time or in fact even cheaper than whatever else we'd be doing that day instead. So really sweety X-wing is saving us money and that's why I have to go to the tournament this Saturday instead of to your sisters bratty kids half birthday party...

8 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

That’s not competitively. Which this post is about. Show me one person at regionals that isn’t there to WIN. No I just drove 2 hours so my B-wings could get harpooned off the table but it was fun and I am not here to actually win. I just wanted to give away my entrance fee.

*raises hand*

I’m going to a very competitive regionals tomorrow (P Heaver, Duncan Howard, etc will be there) with no illusions about making the cut. I’m going to play 6 games of X-Wing and have fun. My great hope is coming out 3-3, a realistic goal I have is to win one game.

5 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

That’s not competitively. Which this post is about. Show me one person at regionals that isn’t there to WIN. No I just drove 2 hours so my B-wings could get harpooned off the table but it was fun and I am not here to actually win. I just wanted to give away my entrance fee.

No, this post is about welcoming new players. Who, as their first or second XWM experience should not be driving 2 hours to win regionals.

2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

*raises hand*

I’m going to a very competitive regionals tomorrow (P Heaver, Duncan Howard, etc will be there) with no illusions about making the cut. I’m going to play 6 games of X-Wing and have fun. My great hope is coming out 3-3, a realistic goal I have is to win one game.

So your saying if you get the chance to play the legend, P. Heaver. You are not going to try and win.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

So your saying if you get the chance to play the legend, P. Heaver. You are not going to try and win.

Ya know, there's this old saying that goes "winning isn't everything."

Maybe @BlodVargarna'll just do his best to show P. Heaver a good time at X-Wing.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Ya know, there's this old saying that goes "winning isn't everything."

Maybe @BlodVargarna'll just do his best to show P. Heaver a good time at X-Wing.

Do you have a room full of participation trophy’s? P. Heaver is there to win. That’s why he is a winner.

4 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

So your saying if you get the chance to play the legend, P. Heaver. You are not going to try and win.

I’ll play my best, and see what happens if I’m lucky to get him as a draw (my good friend and regular playing companion did just that at a store championship at Island Games after we had both been playing less than 3 months!)

Maybe there’s a distinction to be made: I’m going to try to win each of my games but I’m not going to Regionals with that goal.

Just now, s1ickrick said:

Do you have a room full of participation trophy’s? P. Heaver is there to win. That’s why he is a winner.

Nope.

I also don't see P Heaver out here complaining about FFG's business policies. He just focuses on playing the game. That's why he's a winner.

5 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

I’ll play my best, and see what happens if I’m lucky to get him as a draw (my good friend and regular playing companion did just that at a store championship at Island Games after we had both been playing less than 3 months!)

Maybe there’s a distinction to be made: I’m going to try to win each of my games but I’m not going to Regionals with that goal.

If your trying to win all your games doesn’t that mean your trying to win Regionals?

3 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

If your trying to win all your games doesn’t that mean your trying to win Regionals?

No, that completely ignores the list building and metagame portion of things, especially ironic considering this thread is primarily about having the materials for proper list building.

Tomorrow I'm not taking Nymranda even though it will be legal at my regionals because I think it relies on the broken combo that should not, and likely soon will not, exist. Not to mention it's awful to play against and that's not something I want to subject my opponents to. I'm not doing that even though playing it would maximise my chances of winning and it likely means I have zero chance of taking 1st. But that doesn't mean I won't still be taking a very good list, trying to win all my games, or harboring some hope of making top 16.

What is going on here?

57 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

I never said I expect to win. I said I play to win. The chance of winning is why we play and what makes it fun. I believe every ship should be competitive and all players should have access to the important upgrade cards with a reasonable investment. That would bring more new players to the game.

Good luck finding a game as wide and varied as x-wing that fullfills those requirements.

You could always arrange your own tournament where everyone is allowed to proxy any card(s) they need, it wouldnt be official but you and you likes will get to compete at the fullest level on equal footing.