So much LOL in this thread from the original poster. Dont feed the trolls

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Given that you already hate FFG, hate how the game is packaged, hate the fact that you need cards for a minis game, hate any game you can't win, hate to spend money on your hobbies, and hate that the game is going to die, why the **** do you want to play XWM??

Hate is a strong word. Which I never used once. I love the game and want to see it thrive not fade away.

2 hours ago, Khyros said:

\I fear that the game is not new-player friendly for other reasons.

The crux of your argument is that the game is unfriendly to new players because they have to educate themselves about the game in order to not be blindsided. Anyone who won't take the time to try and understand the game as it stands in any system is likely to have a rough time, but going back to the concept of community, any new player around me isn't getting their face mashed in by the bleeding-edge tech. They are being given the chance to get their feet under them, conversing with saltier veterans about the bleeding edge, what works, why, and how to fly it or stop it. Your argument is disingenuous when it isn't insulting.

2 hours ago, DicesonFire said:

What you want? Free rules, free cards, buy only the miniatures you want? Just because you don't want to expend money?

You can want AND get exactly this, by the way. Check out Infinity.

or Firestorm Armada.
Or Chess. Or Checkers.

but the thing is, these games are not star wars related, and dont have cool d8s with symbols and manuevre dails. And Focus tokens. Realy, tons of focus tokens are what make me buy so many ships!

4 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

The crux of your argument is that the game is unfriendly to new players because they have to educate themselves about the game in order to not be blindsided. Anyone who won't take the time to try and understand the game as it stands in any system is likely to have a rough time, but going back to the concept of community, any new player around me isn't getting their face mashed in by the bleeding-edge tech. They are being given the chance to get their feet under them, conversing with saltier veterans about the bleeding edge, what works, why, and how to fly it or stop it. Your argument is disingenuous when it isn't insulting.

No, the crux of my argument is the game has become too bloated for its own good.

49 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Hate is a strong word. Which I never used once. I love the game and want to see it thrive not fade away.

It's true, I said "hate."

OTOH, other than just now, you really haven't said anything that makes me think you enjoy the game at all, other than winning it.

When this game dies, it is going to be because FFG lost the license, not because people spent too much money to go to tournaments.

And if you love the game, spend the money. It's the only way you get more game.

All my OP was about was that it’s not new player friendly and FFG needs to figure out how to make it that way. And yes cost of this magnitude is preventing new players from playing competitively.

18 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Hate is a strong word. Which I never used once. I love the game and want to see it thrive not fade away.

It is thriving. And it is continuing to thrive. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean FFG's model isn't working.

3 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

All my OP was about was that it’s not new player friendly and FFG needs to figure out how to make it that way. And yes cost of this magnitude is preventing new players from playing competitively.

And many of us fundamentally disagree with you. As far as miniature games goes, xwing is crazy affordable. What’s the current cost for someone trying to get at least a semi viable 40k army together? Probably way way more.

A new player seeking to be competitive should start by....

1. Seeing what’s competitive at present

2. Pick a list that is strong but has minimal investment to get what is needed. Yes this means research. Or asking a friend.

Or, for 95% of new players, just print out a list you like with ships you have and just don’t care. The tournament scene and OP get all the limelight but there are way more players just having fun at home with friends and family who’ve never even heard of the faq or why you’d needn’t to errata something.

4 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

And many of us fundamentally disagree with you. As far as miniature games goes, xwing is crazy affordable. What’s the current cost for someone trying to get at least a semi viable 40k army together? Probably way way more.

A new player seeking to be competitive should start by....

1. Seeing what’s competitive at present

2. Pick a list that is strong but has minimal investment to get what is needed. Yes this means research. Or asking a friend.

Or, for 95% of new players, just print out a list you like with ships you have and just don’t care. The tournament scene and OP get all the limelight but there are way more players just having fun at home with friends and family who’ve never even heard of the faq or why you’d needn’t to errata something.

I am sure most of you disagree with me. You have been playing for along time and spent LOTS of money that is already collecting dust. When’s the last time you flew that Punisher in a competive scene? So you feel that’s what everybody else should have to do to be competive. I understand your point. But my point was that kind of thinking and business model won’t bring New Players at a fast enough rate to keep the community growing.

I buy just as much for the pretty models as I do for gameplay reasons, and I know there are a ton of others that feel the same way.

There is a reason the Falcon is the best selling model.

28 minutes ago, Khyros said:

No, the crux of my argument is the game has become too bloated for its own good.

The momentum of the game is always foreward. It must grow, or it dies. One needn't memorize every card, just the good ones. Poke through the others at your leisure. I'd say the hardest way to start up at this moment is in one of the areas that is an X-Wing desert, as you have no one to mentor you...

...except for internet creatures, whose advice must be taken with sometimes exhausting incredulity. Even so, if you've got one person to play with you'll figure it out together. Two sets of eyes are great for reading comprehension, in a competitive game. If you have no one to play with, vassal is there you poor lonely goober. You'll figure it out quick, or quit, in that case with nothing but time and frustration invested

What it sounds like is that you and OP expect or want the game to allow a spanking new, unpracticed, unskilled player to have an even shot at major championships with the contents of a starter box and a can-do attitude, and thats absurd. One doesnt earn a win in a coin flip, but you can definitely earn those W's in X-Wing. You earn them by learning, practise, and surfing that bleeding edge. Every L is a chance to learn, to improve. Plenty of the best players have a long list of L's throughout their years of preparations.

Or play casual, enjoy the game as you will, and leave that bleeding edge nonsense to the tryhards.

Either way, make pew pew noises when rolling those reds, and dont sweat the small stuff.

5 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

I am sure most of you disagree with me. You have been playing for along time and spent LOTS of money that is already collecting dust. When’s the last time you flew that Punisher in a competive scene? So you feel that’s what everybody else should have to do to be competive. I understand your point. But my point was that kind of thinking and business model won’t bring New Players at a fast enough rate to keep the community growing.

I can see where you are trying to come from here, but there also isnt a way for this to be countered business wise. The current model that FFG seems to be working with is fine. You are correct it is a business and they are there to make money not make sure that new palyers are up to the competitive level.

I agree with some of the other statements that have been made. Coming from the warhammer 40k community I can atest that X-wing is far and away much more affordable. Especially if you are looking into trying to play on the tourny level.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

I am sure most of you disagree with me. You have been playing for along time and spent LOTS of money that is already collecting dust. When’s the last time you flew that Punisher in a competive scene? So you feel that’s what everybody else should have to do to be competive. I understand your point. But my point was that kind of thinking and business model won’t bring New Players at a fast enough rate to keep the community growing.

The community seems to be growing fine on its own. Maybe we will see a little drop off until the oppressive bombing gets reigned in, but numbers were up so far this season. That data seems to contradict your assessment.

i have been playing less than 2 years, and I am just going to my first truly competitive event next weekend (I don’t count the occasional store kit level event to mean anything). I have never played a Tie Punisher competitively. I’ve really only flown a small handful of ships competitively but have been practicing a list for Regionals.

That doesn’t mean my ships are dust collecting though. For me, competitive is but one aspect of the larger whole. I enjoy building funsy squads to throw at my nephew so he’s not run over by the latest hotness. I enjoy HotAC, and get a ton of mileage on my old ships over there. I fly epic games, where the sheer volume of ships requires I fly some of my older stuff at times too.

And as a part of my 2018 Resolutions, every ship is going to see play somewhere through the year. Maybe it’ll be in a HotAC campaign, maybe it’ll be in a tournament. But everything will see use.

I got a core set this past Christmas, and have since added a small handful of ships (my fleet is up to... 8 ships now?). I have yet to find games in my neck of the woods to play with (my only gaming partner lives multiple states away) but when I do I am determined to play casually. I'll find my ways to have fun while flying what I like to fly! In the meantime I'm enjoying learning about the game, watching streams/game videos, playing around in simulators, and just looking at the models I do have (so pretty!). Most of the ships in the current meta I have zero interest in, but I could field a competitive list with the ships I have right now and have a something of an idea of how it's supposed to work. I'd fly it terribly, being my first time and all, and I'd be proxying most of the cards, but I'd understand the concept of the list and I've already got the ships I'd need.

The game is huge right now but it is not overwhelming to me at all. If I wanted to be competitive in tournaments right away, then yeah I'd have to spend some money, but I'm not interested in that. I just want to push pretty little models around a table and go pew pew. If I was determined to go to a tournament, I would figure out a couple versions of a list using the ships I have and test them out using proxies and fine tune them and then try to figure out how much it would cost me and whether I could make any substitutions that would make it more affordable without giving up too much of what I want to do. I could probably put together a battleworthy list on a budget.

I generally agree, but I don't thin it is of any fault to FFG (well save for the last Nerfrata). I mean there is now a noob trap expansion that has no warning: this product has received numerous changes do not buy before reading the FAQ.

Granted how to solve the accretion problem that is very common in many continuously updating games. Take MMOs for example, the learning curve for (the first) planetside was described as vertical. I think vassal is the best way to learn before you spend much $$$ on stuff that doesn't work. One of the many reasons why I don't get into any Free2Play games like Lol is because I know there is a lot of decisions I need to make now such as build orders and not making the right one means I ruin it for the team.

18 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

What it sounds like is that you and OP expect or want the game to allow a spanking new, unpracticed, unskilled player to have an even shot at major championships with the contents of a starter box and a can-do attitude, and thats absurd. One doesnt earn a win in a coin flip, but you can definitely earn those W's in X-Wing. You earn them by learning, practise, and surfing that bleeding edge. Every L is a chance to learn, to improve. Plenty of the best players have a long list of L's throughout their years of preparations.

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

3 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

Yet no more than a few posts ago you were asking for upgrade booster packs, which are the literal ammunition of wallet-warriors.

I, for one, don't totally disagree with the OP. And I love the game.
I have lost too many friends that used to play X-wing and have slowly quit after a while, because they were unable or unwilling to keep the pace of the game.

Also, I have tried to recruit new players, but they get utterly demoralized when they make their first, second, third squadron with ships they like, and they are totally demolished by the latest "broken ship of the week" at the store.

Unless you live in a really well populated area with a decent community, you will get to play with whoever is available. And most of the time they are just practicing for the next tournament. So casual players get to face the latest overpowered ship again and again.

You don't need to win all the time to have fun. You don't even need to win half of the time to have fun if you are just having fun even if you end losing.

The problem is when you see from the second round that you have no chance! You feel like the other dude's punching bag.

My brother joined X-Wing at the same time I did. His favorite ship in Star Wars are TIE Interceptors. So he bought 4 (two singles, and imperial aces). Then Scum came out and Autothrusters became autoinclude. Kicking and biting he bought a starviper: a ship he dislikes from a faction he dislikes, so that he could equip 2 of his interceptors with them. I gave him the other 2 he was missing.
Then, soon after came TLT spam, not much later came the Jumpmaster, and finally after a while, bombs reigned victorious. So he obviously ragequit. He could no longer play the ships he liked. He was forced to play any of the flavors of the month or have no chance to win. If you have no chance to win, you cannot really have fun. You need to have a chance.

Another friend tried to join the game recently. He just got scared away by the sheer amount of stuff he would need to buy in one go to have a chance.
It's very easy for us, veterans, just to buy one of each new expansion as they come out. There come 2 waves a year, and that is something most can afford.
However, if you need to buy stuff from all different 13 waves plus aces packs plus epics to get the best pilots and upgrades and fixes, it's not so easy to justify.
Let's remember that the TIE Advanced fix still sits behind a $100 pack.
That the best rebel astromechs are in the GR-75, a ship illegal in Standard.
That the BTL-A4 title for the rebel Y-wing is in the $40 Most Wanted scum pack.
Can you imagine a new player, with family and kids, considering buying U-wings and TIE Punishers for the Expertise, or Long Range Scanners?

I do agree that the game is hurting itself because it presents potential players with these expenses. It's not that what you want costs a lot. It's that what you want comes only with some crap you don't want that feels like a clear scheme to inflate the price. And that is not a good impression to convince anyone to buy in.

4 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

That's BS. Nobody buys a win, and it turns out if you have a wide and varied toolbox you can tackle more jobs than the equally skilled carpenter with a hammer and a saw. If you have a budget, and almost all of us do, prioritize purchases, and if you have the community you say you do there will be plenty of opportunity to borrow or trade what you need for a tournament. You are being given solutions and refutations, but are keeping those fingers stuffed in your ears because your mind was made up when you posted this nonsense thread.

6 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

What you want, then, are casual games where you can proxy cards to your heart's content.

7 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

Well, then, play at home, cuz when you go pro, you have to splash the cash.

Sports = $$$$ to recruit the best players

Auto Racing = $$$$ to have the best car

Fishing = $$$$ for the best boat and sonar

If you have to win, you have to have the best pieces.

And in any game that has multiple pieces, some are going to be better than others.

And the only reason you can't have 20 virtual copies of Autothrusters from an online builder is because you want to be a Tournament Pro.

OP, the game is as easy or difficult as you want it be to get into.

Many very competitive lists can be made under $120. Quad Wookiees, Miranda/Dash, Rey/Poe. ****, Nands Torf got 2nd in Worlds practically from a list he built for an article for lists that cost under $101.

As many others have stated, the Xwing community is superb and will gladly help you out in tournament scenes. I wanted to fly triple wookiees at regionals but only owned two. I simply asked to borrow a third wookiee gunship. Ive never bought the Raider for Palpatine, but if I fly Palp Aces all I have to do is ask to borrow the card. If I need 7 Z95s (but I only own two) for a tournament I can simply ask to borrow them and the community helps out.

6 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

What I want is a level playing field. Not a coin toss win. Where the more skilled player wins by SKILL. Not because he has spent more money on the game and has access to stuff I don’t.

And as several people have pointed out, excluding major tournaments, that's exactly what you can have right now.

I've literally never met anyone that had a problem with printout lists on game night, even for league games. Even for those major events I, and several others locally, also routinely loan out cards day of. I mean arrange it ahead of time, don't just blindly expect someone there to be able to loan you a critical card in your list, but generally people are pretty free with letting you borrow something for the duration of a tournament.

I get the bloat and complexity complaints. It can be hard for a new player to wrap their head around all the interactions the present card set presents and not accidentally fall into, what to a veteran is, an obvious trap. But from a materials perspective by and large the community has your back.

Instead of randomly buying ships in bulk and hoping for the best, you should do some research first and make sure you're buying what you need to be competitive. You can also buy singles on eBay.

Not sure what you're looking for if you're complaining that you can't afford to build a competitive list. Do you want FFG to give everything to you for free? Or do you want to force everyone to use Core box only lists and make all the games expansions and customization pointless?