6 minutes ago, AndyH said:

I feel the original question may slightly miss the business model approach of the game's manufacturer; that of keeping established purchasers and users shelling-out more money for the latest release of ships - in short- fuelling desire. And I don't say this cynically- just matter-of-factly.

They do this by giving the next release of ships a subtle suite of attributes that give some competitive edge ...in competition. It might be a new kind of manoeuvre that allows the ship to evade one of the 'classic' types, or at least bring their guns to bear when the opposition is trying to out-manoeuvre them. It could also be a specific weapon or some other attribute...all aimed at the player that wants the competitive edge in a tournament environment.

If they don't do this, then once a player has - say - enough ships of a couple of factions for a mixed list in either faction...the sales dry-up.

Then, add a healthy dose of peer-pressure, amongst people that want to meet in tournaments primarily...and on forums (like this)...and it is easy to see how a more 'relaxed' or casual / social player (like me)...can be left behind.

It's just business...it's not unwelcoming as such...it just means that unless you get lucky with the dice, your basic TIE swarm is not likely to prevail against the latest offerings...because it is anything but a level battlefield.

I totally agree with what your saying. What I feel is needed, is a way to get More New People playing the game. Is it better to sell 1000 new ships to old players or sell 10000 old ships to new players?

1 minute ago, s1ickrick said:

I totally agree with what your saying. What I feel is needed, is a way to get More New People playing the game. Is it better to sell 1000 new ships to old players or sell 10000 old ships to new players?

But where do those numbers come from? If you get all the cards you need in the pack the ship comes with, new players aren't going to buy more than three or four ships each.

Old players on the other hand... well, show me a new player who bought as many GUNBOATS as I did.

2 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

I totally agree with what your saying. What I feel is needed, is a way to get More New People playing the game. Is it better to sell 1000 new ships to old players or sell 10000 old ships to new players?

But most players do not and will not play in a competitive event.

There are more people who play casually then who play competitively. Getting people into the game casually just requires a core set and 1-2 expansions. Sales numbers also show that casual players will still buy a significant numbers of products. Like me for example. I have at least 1 of every expansion (Epic included) and I have 0 interest in the competitive scene.

If someone wants to go competitive then that will require investment but that is no different than any collectable table top game that has competitive events.

4 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Never said I was struggling to make the cut. Struggling to build a squad that can even compete. You say you can build a squad with those ships and cards. Let’s see it. We will go see if that list is on meta wing anywhere. For any regionals Top 16.

Here's the problem. If you think that only Regionals Top 16 is competitive, then you are clearly not aware of what the Regionals environment is like. There are players who spend hundreds of dollars just traveling to play in as many regional events as possible. They practice for hours, experimenting with deployments and such. You're focusing on what are, conservatively, the top 16 out of a thousand players. The people who make top 16 at one regional will often repeat the feat 2-3 more times at other events in that regional season as they try to take the win.

The reason that ALL Tie's that can use lightweight frame (or Twin Ion Engine Mk II) don't come with it is:
(1) Many Tie's came out PRIOR to either of those upgrade cards being created.
(2) If you put every possible upgrade that any ship could take included with that ships, each small ship pack would cost $50.

Coming into a game that builds wave after wave, after it has been around for a while, is daunting. BUT the key is exactly as you stated at the top of this forum thread: COMMUNITY.

I have every ship and for most I have many multiples of them. When a new player comes to my FLGS with the core set and a couple expansion packs I tell them to look in my case and play what you want. Play my ships first and try out what you like before you buy them. I tell them to not feel intimidated into buying everything all at once. Buy a new ship each payday or something but don't feel the need to play catch up to all thirteen waves in just a month or two.

In your case, I imagine most anyone in your community will loan you stuff to go play in tournament as long as it is not something they intended to take to said tournament. And if you run into a few things you can't find from others at your FLGS to borrow... then spend the cash to fill the list out that you want.

2 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

But where do those numbers come from? If you get all the cards you need in the pack the ship comes with, new players aren't going to buy more than three or four ships each.

Old players on the other hand... well, show me a new player who bought as many GUNBOATS as I did.

Exactly...fuelling desire.

I might say- I'm not even remotely a tournament player...life's too short for all that...working out movements in minute detail etc etc...there is other stuff to do.

But I still buy ships...quite a few really...and big ones - because I'm really into the Epic and cinematic side of playing the game...I prefer that side of it- it's more 'me'.

I just spent a load of time printing cards for turbolasers and shields, the Scarif shield Gate ...and a nice 90cm x 180cm planetary play mat so we can "re-enact" the Battle of Scarif...which is not really tournament stuff.

Now I need a CR90....FFG- make some more please.

OP, you sound really invested in being upset at FFG over this, but seriously, there are really very simple solutions to your problem! You can buy, borrow, or trade for your upgrade cards. You can print them and play casually first to test them out before making an investment in putting together the lists you need buy buying/trading for whatever you can't borrow to make the list work. There are ways to do it without buying a bunch of ships you're not interested in. The cards are out there! Just poke around a bit and you'll find them!!

5 minutes ago, AndyH said:

Now I need a CR90....FFG- make some more please.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/products/tantive-iv-expansion-pack/

These are not out of stock as far as I know.

I can find the cards or buy the ones I need or borrow or whatever. Everybody is missing my point. It is not about me. The game for long term survival needs to figure out how to get more New Players.

I don’t want the game to die like so many have. It is amazing and the people that play it are too. It needs to figure out how to evolve and bring in new people. Having a huge investment to be competive is not something most people will buy into.

As long as the community is welcoming or not, any contributions on FFG's part is bunk

The only thing I see as being unkind to new players is the strictly horrible design of xwings (ie having them suck AND not including Integrated in starters). There are a few easy to play and mostly self contained lists (wookie spam especially) but really xwings should be the go-to beginner friendly squad

That and every product had better have a link to the faq plastered onto the packaging

Other than that, everything else is completely standard for every single miniature game in existence (just replace "upgrade cards" with "actual upgrade models" like space Marines with guns that don't come in the pack or unit attatchments in warmachine)

**** even erratas were common when I played. There was some ATROCIOUS **** at the beginning of warmachine mk2 and privateer press was far more liberal with the nerf hammer than FFG is

Long term, wouldn't mind seeing a new edition (that seems to be the genersal go-to long term solution). Copy the warmachine model: old models still used, new edition cards sold in big faction-packs that cover every updated card)

1 hour ago, s1ickrick said:

Everybody I meet In last 6 months that plays this game regularly. Is going or making an effort to goto Regionals this weekend.

Yeah, it's rutting season for XWM.

1 hour ago, s1ickrick said:

I appreciate all the responses. I bought way more than the core set. What is wrong with all the relevant cards coming with a specific model. I am not only talking about my wants I am talking about any new player trying to bust through and enjoy this amazing game.

There are more ways to enjoy this game than winning a tournament, which seems to be the only way you would find this game satisfying.

55 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Not saying to lock cards in. But why doesn’t every Tie that can use it come with a Lightweight Frame. Makes no sense from a new players perspective to buy a Punisher for one card, especially since the model is nowhere to be seen on the competive scene.

Because the game has been in production for 5 years. LWF didn't exist, and as new ships need the card, there are more an more options to get it. For years Autothrusters only was available in StarViper. At last, the TIE Silencer can provide those cards for Imperial players.

36 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Never said I was struggling to make the cut. Struggling to build a squad that can even compete. You say you can build a squad with those ships and cards. Let’s see it. We will go see if that list is on meta wing anywhere. For any regionals Top 16.

So, basically you are mad because FFG won't make you a Tier 1 Tournament Gift Pack with only the best of the best in 1 box so you don't have to waste any more money than necessary on this game.

I doubt that really helps to grow the game for the future, and has no bearing on how welcoming FFG is for many, many other new players.

Good luck trading in this game, that’s a joke. Been trying to trade new auzitucks still in plastic. For months. Posted on Facebook in Star Wars gaming group. Nobody wants to trade any good upgrade cards. Because they only have 2 and they spent $30 on a worthless ship to get them.

I must disagree about this topic. Indeed, few games are so easy to play in the minis market. Basic Set is quite cheap, and you need less money to deploy your 100 pts than to buy one recent PS4 game.

In my experience, simply forget about printed original upgrade cards unless you want...

A- To collect the cards or...

B- Go Pro and play Tournaments.

This is (or was) a simple little game to share time with Star Wars fans. Print your list. You can buy second hands iconic ships at 8, 6 or even 5 euros. A couple of years ago the second hand market was plentiful of per example Tie Fighters.

And if you want to play only with brand new stuff... small ships circa 12-13 euros. Compare this with other games...

Upgrade cards were GREAT when the game was young and small. Gorgeous art and eaay to reminder. Now upgrade cards are simply an obstacle. Wargaming is my hobbie. My car is not a fancy one and no trips to Vietnam. But I own 407 X Wing models. So no problem showing original cards.

But this is impractical. Simply original Pilot cards, dials and ships/cardboard. Too much upgrade cards. Also...with or without FAQs? Old or new Advanced SLAM?

Buy the models you love. Play the game and enjoy the experience. Little simple game. And if later you want to collect all the stuff... You will not repent. But not needed.

I had a friend get into the game about 4 months ago. He bought another friends kit who was getting out of the game. It was like 1/3 the cost and he got every release to date. IMHO this is the way for a new player to get into the game. But regardless, if you want to be competitive you are going to have to spend some money. This is true of any game that is expansion based.

1 hour ago, kayarn said:

Going down this route means ships will quickly become obsolete.

If models are locked to the upgrades that comes with the ship itself then they will never be able to equip anything new. They will never be able to take advantage of new mechanics.

Not that the T-65 or Tie Fighter can take advantage of 90% of the new mechanics ANYWAY and are basicly sitting in the land of casual play and even THEN they still technically are useless. Still leaves "older" ships in a **** situation.

Buy worthless ships that you can’t use to get cards they need does not sound inviting to new players.

37 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Good luck trading in this game, that’s a joke. Been trying to trade new auzitucks still in plastic. For months. Posted on Facebook in Star Wars gaming group. Nobody wants to trade any good upgrade cards. Because they only have 2 and they spent $30 on a worthless ship to get them.

This isn't a trading card game. There is no real secondary market.

I don't think you are really accepting the model FFG has.

3 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Buy worthless ships that you can’t use to get cards they need does not sound inviting to new players.

So why can't you borrow from others in your area?

I once went to a big regional event and forgot my cards at the house. Rather than forfeit, I went to the TO, and within five minutes I was able to completely reconstruct my squad using borrowed upgrade cards from other players. Because the community in this game is awesome.

Frankly, I feel like you're going into this with a defeatist attitude. Instead of analyzing the problem and looking for ways around it, you're just declaring it a problem that's ruining the game for new players. You're ignoring every suggestion people have tried to offer you in this thread. The situation isn't exactly the way you want it to be, so you're just complaining and being negative for the sake of complaining.

1 hour ago, s1ickrick said:

But why doesn’t every Tie that can use it come with a Lightweight Frame.

You're asking the wrong question here. Why did FFG decide to remove the agility and evasion from all of our TIEs?

4 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You're asking the wrong question here. Why did FFG decide to remove the agility and evasion from all of our TIEs?

Bomber and aggressor should have native 3 agility and evade

Punisher should have 2 agility

Advanced, and Interceptor should have 4 agility and/or some way to get an automatic evade

It's not like you can play a lot of games cheaper than x-wing. Competitively at least.

Try getting into competitive 40k, and then tell me how it went. You can easily buy 1 or even 2 ships for the price of a single hero unit. 2 ships for a box of basic soldiers of most factions. Do you know how many boxes of Ork Boyz you need to even field an army (not a good one... Just a regular army)

Or Warmahordes.. ridiculously expensive (and very broken).

A decent magic deck can easily cost as much as my imperial collection. 1 deck. This ain't a cheap hobby. Stop whining.

12 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

This isn't a trading card game. There is no real secondary market.

I don't think you are really accepting the model FFG has.

Seems to be a lot of cards needed for a miniatures game. So to me they have made a miniatures/trading card game. Maybe they should sell boosters with upgrade cards. It would make the game more friendly for new players. Actually someplace to buy the needed cards rather than the 2 or 3 people on eBay that want a fortune for them. No I haven’t accepted there model and it will kill the game slowly without adding more and more new players. Then we will all have 1000+ dollars of plastic spaceships with no value sittin on our shelves collecting dust. Talking about the days when you used to actually fly them.

6 minutes ago, HolySorcerer said:

You're asking the wrong question here. Why did FFG decide to remove the agility and evasion from all of our TIEs?

Exactly. These are the most agile ships around... Either they should bump their attack up, or correct their agility mistakes.

But of course... They stick to "canon" on their attack values and upgrades, but not on their agility.

Or you know... How the best large ship dials are on turrets for some strange reason.

8 minutes ago, s1ickrick said:

Seems to be a lot of cards needed for a miniatures game. So to me they have made a miniatures/trading card game. Maybe they should sell boosters with upgrade cards. It would make the game more friendly for new players. Actually someplace to buy the needed cards rather than the 2 or 3 people on eBay that want a fortune for them. No I haven’t accepted there model and it will kill the game slowly without adding more and more new players. Then we will all have 1000+ dollars of plastic spaceships with no value sittin on our shelves collecting dust. Talking about the days when you used to actually fly them.

Given that you already hate FFG, hate how the game is packaged, hate the fact that you need cards for a minis game, hate any game you can't win, hate to spend money on your hobbies, and hate that the game is going to die, why the **** do you want to play XWM??