Honestly, having essentially run a game store for a couple years (the owner was more than happy to let me do pretty much everything from order his stock to run his events) I can attest to the difficulty of building a community and maintaining it's ability to be open and fun for new people. If you are running straight tournament style events all the time you will lose players if the top tier of people win all the prizes.

I used to play a lot of Magic and for a brief time was a strong enough player to have a store owner ask me not to come to his events because he was working really hard to build a community that wasn't win at all costs, so @heychadwick's comment about tournament players scaring off new people I think holds true for a lot of places and is something that people who are maintaining these communities keep tabs on.

On the original topic of the post: It isn't that FFG is not welcoming to new players, its that miniatures games in general are difficult and expensive to play and the learning curve is steep.

11 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

Going super hard against a gentle little baby makes a person a jerk. "Looking for a fun game" is a sludgy term though: a lot of people find their fun in pushing that engine to the redline. If there is a conversation before the game, which I assume to be the case, it's really not that hard to callibrate what kind of game an opponent wants to play, then either play that kind of game, explain what you want and compromise, or find a more suitable opponent.

Man, you see things in black and white. Yes, if you are curb stomping a toddler then you are a jerk. If you are there to practice for a tournament and you play against someone who's just into the game for non-tournament play then you can have a negative experience for both players. I don't know if people talked about the type of game beforehand. Yes, doing that is a great way to start. It's not always done, though. There can be situations where neither player is really a jerk, but the more experienced player could've noticed that perhaps the other guy didn't want a full blown tournament level game.

12 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

Your local store owner is complicit in the problem, and it's easy to be because those who have been "scared off" still spend their hard earned scratch with him. Owning a shop gives you the ability to adjust the behavior of your patrons. If I found a game I want to play, and the LGS had a trash community that didn't fit my bill, I'd be buying that game for 30-50% less on the internet. The reason to support a game store is that they mantain a place to play that is welcoming. Paying the extra to keep a good store going is kind of the business model of the FLGS.

You put a lot of onus on the store owner. This guy has a large shop and there are usually several different games going on each night of the week. He's not going to get involved in every single one of them and really regulate how it's going. It's especially true if people aren't being overt jerks. When it comes down to a difference in how people play, the game store owner isn't going to get involved.

12 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

21 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

I'm still incredulous as to how a tournament player who is not otherwise toxic would scare people away from the game. Your example is really about phrasing: X ship sucks and you should never fly it. Thats a pretty rough way to hear about your favie little spaceship, but I find it less greasy than someone extolling the white hot virtues of the Mist Hunter to make a deceptive buck. The key is, again, balance. The truth is some ships are in rough shape, or are harder to use than another. The example you give is really wrong only when they say "never use it." Fly what you want, even in a tournament. Maybe you'll raise some eyebrows. One can be honest about the state of the game, no rose-colored flight goggles on, but still be supportive.

You don't see how a non-toxic tournament player can scare away people looking for a game? This is where degrees of mistakes are made. So, if you have a tournament player who's gearing up for the well known (in tournament circles) tournament in the next week is at a game store and wanting practice for the big event. From his perspective almost everyone knows about the tournament and he knows that a lot of people at the game store that night are there for some hard practice. A guy who doesn't follow the meta, forums, or podcasts enjoys the game with his buddies. He walks into the game store oblivious to the local scene and what's going on. He plops down 4 T-65's and proceeds to play a number of the locals. None of them really say that they are there for practicing the big tournament because everyone they know is all prepping for it. It's obvious to them. The new guy doesn't say anything as this is one of the first times he's ever been to the game store to play with people other than his buddies. After a few games were the casual player gets his list handed to him in shreds, he decides he doesn't like playing at the local game store and goes home. The tournament guys aren't rude or mean, but they just don't notice that this guy was out looking for a fun game. Are the tournament players toxic? I don't think so. It's all miscommunication. Could it have been solved by talking beforehand? Sure, but that often doesn't happen.

21 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

While you may not consider yourself millitantly casual, you would be hard pressed to argue that you are anything but very pro-casual. Thats rad, as long as your supportive. Tournament players can be really supportive of their little slice of the community too. Both are responsible for being decent citizen-gamers.

I just want to say that the few times I've exchanged posts with you that you have been a hostile person and more interested in agitating than building a good community. I've been tempted before to put you on my ignore list, but I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. You always seem ready to attack someone for being anti-tournament and "militant casual".

@heychadwick Communication solves many problems that aren't based on personality clashes. Who sits down for an hour-plus game without even a cursory "What are we playing tonight?"

Is this seriously how the rest of the world works? Wordlessly plopping down across any free person at an open table and playing what am I gonna get roulette? Is talking to a prospective opponent about the upcoming hour and a half to be spent together the exception rather than the norm?

53 minutes ago, E Chu Ta said:

@heychadwick Communication solves many problems that aren't based on personality clashes. Who sits down for an hour-plus game without even a cursory "What are we playing tonight?"

Is this seriously how the rest of the world works? Wordlessly plopping down across any free person at an open table and playing what am I gonna get roulette? Is talking to a prospective opponent about the upcoming hour and a half to be spent together the exception rather than the norm?

It might not be wordless, but it might not be about what type of game they are each looking for is what they are chatting about.

8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It might not be wordless, but it might not be about what type of game they are each looking for is what they are chatting about.

It's still not a tournament players fault just because they are a tournament player. I've heard guys that don't go to tournaments pull some pretty cringe worthy stuff. A communication failure is still a failure to communicate no matter who the two players are. I've done some travelling and it's always nice to hear my opponent who doesn't know me ask the question "competitive or fun" before we set ships down on the board. I've done the same to new players wandering in - and on that rare case I only had something resembling a competitive list (turns out it wasn't) I apologized to the player and traded partners so that he would have a better chance of having a good time. Normally I have at least two lists built up to throw on the table. We even go so far as to ask around before we leave to help coordinate our plans for the following week. "Epic? Standard? Scenario?"

What it sounds like is that people are assuming too much in your area and not communicating. Both parties can speak up... "I'm just looking for a fun game" works just as well as a tournament player asking "competitive or fun."

Seriously, tournament play has value as well. It's the most visible form of the game being played, and it's a way for new potential players to see that a game exists and is active.

25 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It might not be wordless, but it might not be about what type of game they are each looking for is what they are chatting about.

It's a 4 sentence investment to save over an hour of tedium or frustration. Even in the middle of an in-depth conversation of the Great British Baking Show:

"Martha's my favorite. Her bakes are so wholesome..."
"Srsface or funsies?"

"Funsies. My list is pretty clownshoes." *Honk Honk*

"Blorf..." (Translation: I would rather not do that.)

"Lemme get my clown on then we can go for blood."

"Righteous. Chetna's bakes look so delicious though..."

Now we're playing 2 games, with expectations set for both. AND we still get to discuss those British Bakes! Infinite win!

Just now, E Chu Ta said:

It's a 4 sentence investment to save over an hour of tedium or frustration. Even in the middle of an in-depth conversation of the Great British Baking Show:

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's not always done. It doesn't make the tournament or the casual player a jerk or toxic.

2 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

On the original topic of the post: It isn't that FFG is not welcoming to new players, its that miniatures games in general are difficult and expensive to play and the learning curve is steep.

This is really the meat of it, minis games tax their players a fairly enormous amount of time and extremely specific knowledge (the rules of the game) to get started at all. It's daunting. FFG is actually sort of a nice guy here, comparitively: you dont have to paint the minis, one huge hurdle cleared; and you can start your learning easy with a core box and ramp up from there. Theres a ton to learn from there, but that's the hobby, innit?

3 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying it's not always done. It doesn't make the tournament or the casual player a jerk or toxic.

The internet is fertile ground for hyperbole: making a point can feel like you need to take the extreme example to illustrate your case. I see the pregame convo (also the post-game convo) as simple politeness. Even without, theres a tactful way to look at your opponent's list and tell there may be a disparity in the matchup. Another chance to communicate. I set my murderlist down and see something that looks a little or a lot more casual I'd bring it up. This comes back to being a good member of the community, if you are the one with experience to notice some pretty colossal disparities in the listbuilding, be a decent person and talk about it.

Communication.

The conversation often does not happen, or is irrelevant, simply due to logistics. A lot of players don't bring their whole kit and literally only have the list they were planning to play tonight. Whether that's because they're a psycho ultra try hard who is trying to get 50 reps in so they can totally dominate that 20 person store champs or they're a starry eyed muppet of a casual who is flying a theme list from their favorite terribad EU book they read when they were 12, it doesn't matter because that is what they're playing tonight.

Depending on time and available players the choice at that point can be not what list to fly, but do I get to play at all tonight...

3 hours ago, E Chu Ta said:

@heychadwick Communication solves many problems that aren't based on personality clashes. Who sits down for an hour-plus game without even a cursory "What are we playing tonight?"

Is this seriously how the rest of the world works? Wordlessly plopping down across any free person at an open table and playing what am I gonna get roulette? Is talking to a prospective opponent about the upcoming hour and a half to be spent together the exception rather than the norm?

In any pairing of gamers -- including X-Wing players -- there's a decent chance that one of them is relatively shy, uncertain of the local customs and etiquette, and unwilling to risk looking bad by asking. (It's objectively a silly thing to fear, but it's not subjectively a silly thing to fear.) There's also a decent chance in any pairing that one of them is just self-centered and self-absorbed enough -- or even just a smidge on the spectrum -- that he's not immediately picking up on the signals of a new or new-ish player.

When you get two of either type of these players -- and it can definitely happen -- yes, of course it's possible for "no meaningful communication" to happen, pre-game.

Wherever you play, where every gamer is a well-adjusted, friendly, extroverted individual, well ... you should take a few seconds every day to realize how fortunate you are.

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

The conversation often does not happen, or is irrelevant, simply due to logistics. A lot of players don't bring their whole kit and literally only have the list they were planning to play tonight. Whether that's because they're a psycho ultra try hard who is trying to get 50 reps in so they can totally dominate that 20 person store champs or they're a starry eyed muppet of a casual who is flying a theme list from their favorite terribad EU book they read when they were 12, it doesn't matter because that is what they're playing tonight.

Depending on time and available players the choice at that point can be not what list to fly, but do I get to play at all tonight...

I personally try to pack two lists in my bag on league night. The one I want to compete with, assuming something is coming up I want to prep for, and something way more funsie or casual, incase the only available player is less experienced. I admit, at the moment, I have two competitive lists packed due to an upcoming hangar bay event. I really need to get a third in my bag, especially since I have room for it.