I was lamenting how little I play my Tie Strikers recently. My best list for them usually involves 2 Strikers, StridanHux and an AP. (Though I do hear people are winning regionals with Countdown or Sabaac as a 3rd ship. How have people found these lists? I think they're underwhelming.)

Or the other sad kinda okay ish ships that don't really see play anymore: Tie Ds, Bwings, Awings.

Anyway. Are the other Tier1 boogeymen way too powerful still to bridge to Tier2? Say Poe, Miranda, Dash, Dengar, Asajj. All those other meta 2 ship builds.

Are Gunboats actually a problem? I mean, 3Nu QD is a serious list. So is Palp Alpha with Vader QD and Harpoons. But esp for Gunboats, i think they woulda been just as perfectly powerful shooting Concussion Missiles instead. Or even Cruise Missiles.

As times goes by it is clear to my little and obtuse mind that there are 2 X Wing Miniatures Game.

1. Competitive Meta. Not a problem with super combos. Living Game. You must think about new cards and interactions and how to max your 100 pts.

2. Casual non competitive. No problem about new combos. Simply ignore them. Design your T 65 fix. Limit stuff like TLT or Harpoon.

So I think this is a healthy game. Only a matter of perspective.

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I was lamenting how little I play my Tie Strikers recently. My best list for them usually involves 2 Strikers, StridanHux and an AP. (Though I do hear people are winning regionals with Countdown or Sabaac as a 3rd ship. How have people found these lists? I think they're underwhelming.)

Or the other sad kinda okay ish ships that don't really see play anymore: Tie Ds, Bwings, Awings.

Anyway. Are the other Tier1 boogeymen way too powerful still to bridge to Tier2? Say Poe, Miranda, Dash, Dengar, Asajj. All those other meta 2 ship builds.

Are Gunboats actually a problem? I mean, 3Nu QD is a serious list. So is Palp Alpha with Vader QD and Harpoons. But esp for Gunboats, i think they woulda been just as perfectly powerful shooting Concussion Missiles instead. Or even Cruise Missiles.

too early to tell. The tier 2 lists are still settling, as mentioned in the accretion thread our card pool is getting rather expansive which takes time to crunch the numbers on what might be a combo that hasn't seen light of day in years. On top of that several of the t2's cancel each other ( looking at poe, nu's and assajj). That makes flying them risky, which is doubly so with palp aces if you run into bombs......

As usual, part of the top of meta is that it *IS* the meta. People fly it for a variety of reasons, (fatigue levels over a full comp, redundancy for mistakes, minimal seen counters) which ultimately adds to it being the most used list and top of the comps.

4 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

So I think this is a healthy game... from a certain point of view.

FTFY.

I assume that healthy means „high variety of lists where the game was not already lost at listbuilding“?

If so, then yes. I think that the game is healthy with the metastasizing NymMiranda growing into a larger problem. Once that‘s fixed it is pretty good. Better than it has been in years

36 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

As times goes by it is clear to my little and obtuse mind that there are 2 X Wing Miniatures Game.

1. Competitive Meta. Not a problem with super combos. Living Game. You must think about new cards and interactions and how to max your 100 pts.

2. Casual non competitive. No problem about new combos. Simply ignore them. Design your T 65 fix. Limit stuff like TLT or Harpoon.

So I think this is a healthy game. Only a matter of perspective.

To me it's the same. though I find the state of the meta interesting, even i hasn't affected me for ages.

But as long as your meta is not very closed/communicative (meaning friends which can agree "how" to play the game) meta affects you, as some people in LGS wants to fly the flavor of the month (or win "at all costs")

36 minutes ago, Hexdot said:

As times goes by it is clear to my little and obtuse mind that there are 2 X Wing Miniatures Game.

1. Competitive Meta. Not a problem with super combos. Living Game. You must think about new cards and interactions and how to max your 100 pts.

2. Casual non competitive. No problem about new combos. Simply ignore them. Design your T 65 fix. Limit stuff like TLT or Harpoon.

So I think this is a healthy game. Only a matter of perspective.

To me it's the same. though I find the state of the meta interesting, even i hasn't affected me for ages.

But as long as your meta is not very closed/communicative (meaning friends which can agree "how" to play the game) meta affects you, as some people in LGS wants to fly the flavor of the month (or win "at all costs")

I find it unpredictable... I don't really ever talk to my opponent about how to approach the game. We all turn up at X-Wing night and bring whatever lists we want... sometimes it will be fun and sometimes you'll get destroyed by a really competitive list. So some games are fun and some are frustrating, it's basically the luck of the draw.

Personally I think the game is only a few simple steps away from being in a decent state, as it is only a handful of abusive cards/interactions that are currently causing the trouble. Here's what, in my opinion, is needed:

-The interaction between Trajectory Simulator and Genius needs to be stopped. Neither card is broken on its own at the moment, and clumsily 'fixing' or altering either card individually risks damaging their limited use outside of Nym.

-Sabine crew needs to be nerfed. Hard. It's long overdue and is at the crux of the problem with bombs - the fact that she remained untouched while Advanced SLAM was essentially taken away from the ship it was originally designed for was a definite case of treating the symptom rather than the real problem (one that succeeded only in killing off every other K-Wing besides Miranda), and I'd be loathe for any other cards to have to suffer because of her. I'm not convinced a range limit will substantially weaken her; my personal preference is to make her a one-time use, which for 2pts seems more than reasonable (as a point of comparison, Crack Shot is 1pt for 1 guaranteed damage, and Sabine adds an additional bomb slot as well which is probably worth 1pt given the existence of Extra Munitions and Bomblet Generator).

-Harpoons need to be reigned in - it is entirely unreasonable and frankly unacceptable that a specialist missile is also more efficient than every other missile in the game before the condition card is even considered, not to mention that the condition is an incredibly powerful one. Require it to spent the Target Lock in order to fire, require it to cancel dice results and only apply the 'Harpooned!' card (as one might have expected it to do in the first place), raise the cost considerably...any of those could work. However it is accomplished, it needs to be done.
As a side note, TLT shots (and any other attack that cancels dice results) should not be triggering the Harpooned condition - there is no excuse for the condition being worded in such a way that allows it, and it sets precedent for some truly ridiculous situations like Jamming Beams or Thread Tracers setting off the harpoon.

-Take the EPT slot away from every Scurrg. Quite why they have them in the first place is anyones guess, since the Rebel and Imperial heavy bombers universally don't (for good reason) and no such ship should ever have been allowed to get to PS10 - it's a big part of the current PS escalation problem and the over-prevalence (some might say requirement) of PS11 ships. Personally I'd also like Nym to drop to native PS7, in line with all the other 'computer game protagonist' characters FFG have used.

I think trajectory simulator is fundamentally silly to be honest. It takes away a lot of the flavour and skill of bombing. I can't picture what is happening when a ship is firing a bomb miles ahead of itself, it's just weird.

17 minutes ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

I think trajectory simulator is fundamentally silly to be honest. It takes away a lot of the flavour and skill of bombing. I can't picture what is happening when a ship is firing a bomb miles ahead of itself, it's just weird.

29 minutes ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

I think trajectory simulator is fundamentally silly to be honest. It takes away a lot of the flavour and skill of bombing. I can't picture what is happening when a ship is firing a bomb miles ahead of itself, it's just weird.

Pretty sure it just fires it out of a fore-mounted chute.

28 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

OK, so hindsight is 20/20, but there's a lot of funny posts in that topic...

52 minutes ago, ayedubbleyoo said:

I think trajectory simulator is fundamentally silly to be honest. It takes away a lot of the flavour and skill of bombing. I can't picture what is happening when a ship is firing a bomb miles ahead of itself, it's just weird.

That is how bombs were used in the old PC sims. They came out from the warhead launchers instead of from a bomb chute, then it would drift forward at a slightly faster speed than the launching craft until they collided with a (usually capital-sized) target or self-detonate after some time.

Check this video at 2:50:

Just my feelings (braces for Krayt response :P)...

- Asajj will rise to the top and will be the new boogeyman. Latts needs to be limited to once to per round or they need to take away one of the illicit slots. She will continue to be almost impossible to kill.

- Harpoons need some sort of correction...price/effect/something. They are far too efficient for cost.

- Reinforce needs to be treated like any other token. That way you can shut it down with Wes/Old Teroch/Carnor/ect.

- Get rid of deadeye. Or make it a use once and discard. With extra munitions and insanely accurate ordinance and reload, it's far too efficient for it's cost now vs. when it was released.

- Sabine needs a fix. Either limit it to range 3 of the bomb, same ship, or increase the price. Something. It's far too efficient of a crew.

- Miranda needs some sort of fix. I don't know what that is. But she's way too efficient of a point fortress.

- Obvious nerf to Genius & TS. Make Genius a use once and destroy. Not the bomb.

Changing up some of these will shift people into lists and fear other ones less.

2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Personally I think the game is only a few simple steps away from being in a decent state, as it is only a handful of abusive cards/interactions that are currently causing the trouble. Here's what, in my opinion, is needed:

-The interaction between Trajectory Simulator and Genius needs to be stopped. Neither card is broken on its own at the moment, and clumsily 'fixing' or altering either card individually risks damaging their limited use outside of Nym.

-Sabine crew needs to be nerfed. Hard. It's long overdue and is at the crux of the problem with bombs - the fact that she remained untouched while Advanced SLAM was essentially taken away from the ship it was originally designed for was a definite case of treating the symptom rather than the real problem (one that succeeded only in killing off every other K-Wing besides Miranda), and I'd be loathe for any other cards to have to suffer because of her. I'm not convinced a range limit will substantially weaken her; my personal preference is to make her a one-time use, which for 2pts seems more than reasonable (as a point of comparison, Crack Shot is 1pt for 1 guaranteed damage, and Sabine adds an additional bomb slot as well which is probably worth 1pt given the existence of Extra Munitions and Bomblet Generator).

-Harpoons need to be reigned in - it is entirely unreasonable and frankly unacceptable that a specialist missile is also more efficient than every other missile in the game before the condition card is even considered, not to mention that the condition is an incredibly powerful one. Require it to spent the Target Lock in order to fire, require it to cancel dice results and only apply the 'Harpooned!' card (as one might have expected it to do in the first place), raise the cost considerably...any of those could work. However it is accomplished, it needs to be done.
As a side note, TLT shots (and any other attack that cancels dice results) should not be triggering the Harpooned condition - there is no excuse for the condition being worded in such a way that allows it, and it sets precedent for some truly ridiculous situations like Jamming Beams or Thread Tracers setting off the harpoon.

-Take the EPT slot away from every Scurrg. Quite why they have them in the first place is anyones guess, since the Rebel and Imperial heavy bombers universally don't (for good reason) and no such ship should ever have been allowed to get to PS10 - it's a big part of the current PS escalation problem and the over-prevalence (some might say requirement) of PS11 ships. Personally I'd also like Nym to drop to native PS7, in line with all the other 'computer game protagonist' characters FFG have used.

1) I think that hits the nail on the head. No more Genius/TS interaction means that the cards can still fill their niche role without becoming useless.

2) Something needs to be done to fix harpoons; still not sure why they deal regular damage AND apply the (very annoyingly worded) condition.

3) The Scurgg (especially Nym) feels like it came directly out of the Starfighter video game. Fun, but way too OP for competitive play.

32 minutes ago, viedit said:

Just my feelings (braces for Krayt response :P)...

- Asajj will rise to the top and will be the new boogeyman. Latts needs to be limited to once to per round or they need to take away one of the illicit slots. She will continue to be almost impossible to kill.

- Harpoons need some sort of correction...price/effect/something. They are far too efficient for cost.

- Reinforce needs to be treated like any other token. That way you can shut it down with Wes/Old Teroch/Carnor/ect.

- Get rid of deadeye. Or make it a use once and discard. With extra munitions and insanely accurate ordinance and reload, it's far too efficient for it's cost now vs. when it was released.

- Sabine needs a fix. Either limit it to range 3 of the bomb, same ship, or increase the price. Something. It's far too efficient of a crew.

- Miranda needs some sort of fix. I don't know what that is. But she's way too efficient of a point fortress.

- Obvious nerf to Genius & TS. Make Genius a use once and destroy. Not the bomb.

Changing up some of these will shift people into lists and fear other ones less.

1) Hate flying against Ventress too.

2) See above

3) Honestly, my gut instinct was to be against it, but I think its a good compromise if the Scurgg keeps its EPT

4) I'm still not sure why reinforce was added to the game on a ship like the Wookie Gunboat

5) Sabine being one use seems fair

6) Its been how long since the K-wing was release and she's still massively OP. Regen is an annoying component that pretty much ignores a central tenant of the game (outside of a legendary droid like R2-D2) where damage accumulates over time.

7) I still think removing the interaction is the way to go rather than changing any card text but I can see the point.

2 hours ago, MalusCalibur said:

Personally I think the game is only a few simple steps away from being in a decent state, as it is only a handful of abusive cards/interactions that are currently causing the trouble. Here's what, in my opinion, is needed:

-The interaction between Trajectory Simulator and Genius needs to be stopped. Neither card is broken on its own at the moment, and clumsily 'fixing' or altering either card individually risks damaging their limited use outside of Nym.

-Sabine crew needs to be nerfed. Hard. It's long overdue and is at the crux of the problem with bombs - the fact that she remained untouched while Advanced SLAM was essentially taken away from the ship it was originally designed for was a definite case of treating the symptom rather than the real problem (one that succeeded only in killing off every other K-Wing besides Miranda), and I'd be loathe for any other cards to have to suffer because of her. I'm not convinced a range limit will substantially weaken her; my personal preference is to make her a one-time use, which for 2pts seems more than reasonable (as a point of comparison, Crack Shot is 1pt for 1 guaranteed damage, and Sabine adds an additional bomb slot as well which is probably worth 1pt given the existence of Extra Munitions and Bomblet Generator).

-Harpoons need to be reigned in - it is entirely unreasonable and frankly unacceptable that a specialist missile is also more efficient than every other missile in the game before the condition card is even considered, not to mention that the condition is an incredibly powerful one. Require it to spent the Target Lock in order to fire, require it to cancel dice results and only apply the 'Harpooned!' card (as one might have expected it to do in the first place), raise the cost considerably...any of those could work. However it is accomplished, it needs to be done.
As a side note, TLT shots (and any other attack that cancels dice results) should not be triggering the Harpooned condition - there is no excuse for the condition being worded in such a way that allows it, and it sets precedent for some truly ridiculous situations like Jamming Beams or Thread Tracers setting off the harpoon.

-Take the EPT slot away from every Scurrg. Quite why they have them in the first place is anyones guess, since the Rebel and Imperial heavy bombers universally don't (for good reason) and no such ship should ever have been allowed to get to PS10 - it's a big part of the current PS escalation problem and the over-prevalence (some might say requirement) of PS11 ships. Personally I'd also like Nym to drop to native PS7, in line with all the other 'computer game protagonist' characters FFG have used.

I agree with every single point you made. For Sabine, what i would like is her ability to be randomized by a dice roll. 50% chance to get an extra hit seems much more reasonable while still quite effective.

One of the problem of doing all that: the meta will be dominated almost 100% by wookies... The Gunship is another very badly designed ship. Its defense is better than JMKs and Shadowcasters, the cost is really low, you got double crew for an absurb amount of possible shenanigan with all the nice rebels crews available, its 3 red dice with a huge arc, etc. IMO the reinforce token should be removed once its used. Would still be very good but at least the ship would be sensitive to being focus fired because of poor maneuvering.

4 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I agree with every single point you made. For Sabine, what i would like is her ability to be randomized by a dice roll. 50% chance to get an extra hit seems much more reasonable while still quite effective.

One of the problem of doing all that: the meta will be dominated almost 100% by wookies... The Gunship is another very badly designed ship. Its defense is better than JMKs and Shadowcasters, the cost is really low, you got double crew for an absurb amount of possible shenanigan with all the nice rebels crews available, its 3 red dice with a huge arc, etc. IMO the reinforce token should be removed once its used. Would still be very good but at least the ship would be sensitive to being focus fired because of poor maneuvering.

Ugh; not only is the Gunship OP and not fun to play against, it's also (imo) ugly as sin.

I think the game is actually in a decent place. Nymiranda, Lowhrick, and Timewalk Assaj are a little awkward.

Take a ship you love and play it along side a couple things you know will work. Mix in good stuff and your good to go.

You can put anything you like on the table provided you give it a bit of help from somethings that can maintain a small semblance of offensive, defensive, and pilot skill balance.

I think gunboats are one of the most balanced ships recently released. They require A LOT of planning to fly well knowing when to engage, when to bail, and managing action economy to reload and get back into action. They add a much needed sub 25 point hitter on the Empire side that you don't feel like it's a point waste. They also are very flexible loadout wise without feeling completely overpowered like Scurrgs. K-wings and Jumps. And it's a cute little model in addition. The casual gaming really never has been better. There's just so much variety and flavor. The problem comes in when a new player brings a limited collection of ships to a gaming night and other players are running highly competitive netlists and just destroy them. In my best Chris Allen voice: "Feels bad man". There's such a divide between fun and competitive that it can really leave a sour taste if both sides aren't playing equal powered lists.

It's a tough time right now with it being regional seasons and people trying to get reps in with their primary lists. Casual people are stuck playing against that on game nights.

How to fix the game in two simple steps:

1) Reduce Harpoons down to 3 dice.

2) Make Genius a one time use card.

To me, we NEED only one fix... remove Nym’s EPT

I’d LIKE to see a soft TLT and Harpoon correction... and a heavy Miranda and Sabine correction, but I don’t see them as necessary

I see a ton of "amateur hour" suggestions, in par with FFG design philosophy.

"oooo make genius one time only"
-> because I will never use ion bombs + sabine with trajectory simulator + genius.
and then proton bombs with trajectory simulator + sabine in the next turn, no sir.

again.

ps10 is the norm now.
You need ps10 or 11 for gods sakes.

You have many pilots that can make to it, but maaaaany more that are out of the game because of it.

27 minutes ago, DicesonFire said:

ps10 is the norm now.
You need ps10 or 11 for gods sakes.

You have many pilots that can make to it, but maaaaany more that are out of the game because of it.

I want VI/Adabtability to be non-unique pilots only for that reason.

Some good talk on the current meta on this podcast.

https://mynockpodcast.libsyn.com/episode-102-defective-plating