So uh... When are the objective tokens for Blockade Run assigned?

Important now, because some fleets may now have a ship out of play starting with "before deploying fleets."

There is no established precedent that I'm aware of, because different objectives assign their tokens at different times.

Considerations:

- the sequence on the card shows it happening after the obstacles are set up

- it can't be at any point during the game, because then P2 has no incentive to put them out until the end of R6 to deny points to P1.

- it reads as though the intent is for every ship in the game to have one on it.

- Every other card that applies objective tokens to a ship during the Setup phase to track a status on it lists that event as happening during the Setup phase.

Ultimately, the question is: are the tokens applied...

1) after placing obstacles,

2) before deploying ships, or

3) after deploying ships.

There is precedent for all three.

Isn’t there something about Objectives only being resolved during setup?

o hate not being near a computer... I’ll check in this one during my break at work

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Isn’t there something about Objectives only being resolved during setup?

o hate not being near a computer... I’ll check in this one during my break at work

Not that I see or am familiar with. There is, of course, on pg 10 SETUP: "Choose Objective: The first player looks at all three of
his opponent’s objective cards and chooses one to be
the objective for the game."

And on pg 8 OBJECTIVES CARDS: "During the “Choose Objective” step of setup,
the first player looks at his opponent’s objective cards and
chooses one of those cards. The chosen card becomes the
objective for the game; the unchosen objective cards and
the first player’s objective cards are not used this game."

Not sure either of those is gonna be terribly helpful.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/257299-raddus-stuff-and-objectives-interactions/

The effect of saying they CAN be chosen as objective ships would be that a Raddus/Profundity Russian Doll could put two ships "across the line" in a very late round with very little risk of having to run the blockade. You would just need to get one ship past the blockade, and then it would turn into three. A recipe for a low MOV game.

13 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/257299-raddus-stuff-and-objectives-interactions/

Thanks, but nobody asked this question there. And this is easier to search for for posterity.

6 hours ago, RobertK said:

The effect of saying they CAN be chosen as objective ships would be that a Raddus/Profundity Russian Doll could put two ships "across the line" in a very late round with very little risk of having to run the blockade. You would just need to get one ship past the blockade, and then it would turn into three. A recipe for a low MOV game.

That's sort of true, but it also means you're banking your large ship and another small ship on getting one of the rest of your fleet across the line--a recipe for losing horribly, since that's an awful lot of points tied up in just a few small ships. It also does nothing to prevent the isolated rest of the fleet from being engaged by the entirety of the opponent's fleet. While it's true that you could make a fleet optimized to make this idea work, it's not a particularly rewarding approach, it depends on your opponent picking Blockade Run, and it is not going to be trivial to match that same fleet with a yellow and a blue objective that your opponent wouldn't rather pick.

For those reasons, I don't think there's a particularly dire danger that ruling the tokens to be placed "after placing obstacles" or "before deploying ships" would lead to this sort of build being all over the place and every game of Armada becoming boring.

17 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Isn’t there something about Objectives only being resolved during setup?

o hate not being near a computer... I’ll check in this one during my break at work

P5 of RRG

During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects.

It I not exavtly the same but I am not sure this was what you were looking for though.

1 hour ago, Ardaedhel said:

For those reasons, I don't think there's a particularly dire danger that ruling the tokens to be placed "after placing obstacles" or "before deploying ships" would lead to this sort of build being all over the place and every game of Armada becoming boring.

I wasn't making that dire of a prediction. I just meant that it became an option. In fact, I think the "nesting Raddus" has the chance to be good on other objectives besides this one. It's just that this allows an option that might be seen as gamey. Even if your opponent chooses a blue or yellow objective, the advantage in deployment of putting down a couple of ships after the battle develops some could be used to good effect. It just has the added bonus of playing Blockade Run shennanigans if ruled this way as well.

1 minute ago, RobertK said:

I wasn't making that dire of a prediction. I just meant that it became an option. In fact, I think the "nesting Raddus" has the chance to be good on other objectives besides this one. It's just that this allows an option that might be seen as gamey. Even if your opponent chooses a blue or yellow objective, the advantage in deployment of putting down a couple of ships after the battle develops some could be used to good effect. It just has the added bonus of playing Blockade Run shennanigans if ruled this way as well.

Yeah, sorry, at some point there I shifted from "response" mode to "pontificate" mode. It's a bad habit.

My little opinion of this I dropped on the linked thread too:

I am of a mind for a solid NO on Most Wanted and other "after deployment" objectives, due to the timing, but a yes to Blockade Run (and non-timed objective effects), again, due to the timing. IMNSHO I see it as you choose the objective card and follow its instructions; if those instructions direct an action without timing, you do it at the time it is chosen. In the case of Most Wanted, the first action it tells you to take is to assign tokens (everything else is information, not an instruction on timing), so you assign them, then you set up obstacles, then set aside ship(s), then deploy. We all know that a great many rules conundrums get decided by timing.

While I am generally inclined to agree, it does make me wonder why (if this is the case) Blockade Run involves tokens at all.

It could simply have been worded as "When one of the second player's ships is destroyed, the first player gains 1 victory token" and "The second player gains 1 victory token for each of his ships in the first player's deployment zone".

Objective token manipulation/removal must surely be a possibility?

...though yes, I guess we do have Jyn Erso.

58 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

While I am generally inclined to agree, it does make me wonder why (if this is the case) Blockade Run involves tokens at all.

It could simply have been worded as "When one of the second player's ships is destroyed, the first player gains 1 victory token" and "The second player gains 1 victory token for each of his ships in the first player's deployment zone".

Objective token manipulation/removal must surely be a possibility?

...though yes, I guess we do have Jyn Erso.

I think it was mostly done to prevent mass MSU lists from delaying and then jumping across, and running away with the score... and to punish single ship or sacrificial ship lists at the same time - aiming to be perfectlybsetup for that 4 ship list....

by assigning tokens, it becomes a known quantity of potential points, rather than continuing to escalate - and although those types of objectives do exist, they are limited.

The number of VP earned is 20 per ship escaped/destroyed regardless of whether objective tokens are involved, no? Or are tokens limited by supply?

18 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

The number of VP earned is 20 per ship escaped/destroyed regardless of whether objective tokens are involved, no? Or are tokens limited by supply?

No, you are totally right.

I was thinking Hyperlane Raid instead... My very bad bad

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

No, you are totally right.

I was thinking Hyperlane Raid instead... My very bad bad

And I suspect this is why it has tokens: an artifact of the relationship with Hyperlane Raid, where it is important to track which ships are objective ships.

I think all the ships get token... Gotta be... I mean I like blockade run, and Raddus blockade was a plan for that objective... If Raddus doesn't work with it, it's just one more reason to take most wanted and do we really note need more of those?

Was this ever resolved? Still not sure if the hyperspace ships count for points or not...

3 minutes ago, themightyhedgehog said:

Was this ever resolved? Still not sure if the hyperspace ships count for points or not...

Not resolved by FFG as of yet.

Didn't the FAQ address ships not being deployed being 'immune' to all game effects - or something along those lines?

And it seems picking a good red objective is one of the challenges of building a Raddus list.

3 minutes ago, Cremate said:

Didn't the FAQ address ships not being deployed being 'immune' to all game effects - or something along those lines?

There is no timing on the Blocjade run card - so you have no idea if they would be deployed or immune or not...

if if it were before deployment, you’d get it... if it were after deployment, you wouldn’t...

...

but with no timing you simply do not know.

I think the most logical way to go is that the Raddused or Profunditysed (?) ships doesn't get a token and that's another reason why for the tokens to ever exist on this objective. But as it is we'll be needing for sure FFG's clarification.

Resolved by latest FAQ.

Quote

Blockade Run: The second player assigns 1 objective token to each of their ships after the objective is chosen, before any ships can be set aside by card effects.