1 minute ago, Koing907 said:

I'm quite serious. In your analogy, the approval process is meant to test for such results. Does the cure work? Are there any side effects?

To bring the analogy back to the game, if TO's can overrive the rules, then we do not have a shared set of consistent rules to play by. This is why you can grab your kit and go play in a Regional in the first place. Everyone knows (should know, if they want to participate) how the game and it's rules work.
Throwing that away could throw away the competitive scene altogether. Listjuggler will be useless, and lists will become a maze of conditionals based on what the rules are going to be based on the venue.

The point of the analogy, which you simply have to be willfully missing, is that neither of those questions matter since you're dead anyways

As long as everyone within a given regional is playing by the same set of rules and people are aware of the rules ahead of time then why does it matter? ListJuggler is not the game and if it has to be made ever so slightly less "accurate" then, who really cares? As far as throwing away the competitive scene I'm far and away more worried about the damage from many peoples one big tournament all year being a gross NPE than I am an abstract rules integrity/slippery slope argument

12 minutes ago, Makaze said:

The point of the analogy, which you simply have to be willfully missing, is that neither of those questions matter since you're dead anyways

As long as everyone within a given regional is playing by the same set of rules and people are aware of the rules ahead of time then why does it matter? ListJuggler is not the game and if it has to be made ever so slightly less "accurate" then, who really cares? As far as throwing away the competitive scene I'm far and away more worried about the damage from many peoples one big tournament all year being a gross NPE than I am an abstract rules integrity/slippery slope argument

And I think having one **** Regional season is less of an NPE than setting a precedent that TO's can base rulings on rumors.

TOs have some say over any rules interactions that they think could be mis-guided or un-intended. That seems to be clearly stated in the rules.

I would only get huffy about a TO making a strong rules call/change IF they make a stance too close to the event date.

Id say making a stance > 11 days up to an event could be "deemed okay', as that matches amount of time a new product has to be released before it is allowed at tournaments.

Though, since we have to buy tickets and book hotels months in advance for the big events, Id say, barring any new expansions or FAQs coming out, TOs for the big events should really lock down any rules pretty close after the time tickets go on sale.

If I found I am currently only good enough/enjoying to compete with, say, GENIUS Traj Sim Nym, enough so that I am willing to risk the costs of a long distance travel expense for the chance of glory, only to find I cant run that combo any more AFTER Ive committed my funds, Id be pretty salty about it.

Every OTHER player signed up to compete in an environment where the "broke combo" exists, and were willing to risk their time and money even knowing it was there, even if they don't "agree" with the interactions existence or "health".

Nym + GENIUS + Trajectory Sim is SUPER strong and very difficult to beat. But I tell ya, this game is already chalked full of strong combos that are on par as unbeatable without perfect scenarios/dice/counter list, that having THIS one be the target is strange to me.

Players just seem OK with "oppressive defensive combos", but not with "oppressive offensive combos". Why????

2 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

And I think having one **** Regional season is less of an NPE than setting a precedent that TO's can base rulings on rumors.

How long do you think people play this game for on average...? A year is a pretty big chunk of time in most people's X-wing career and if this **** regionals season is your first then how likely are you to come back for a second?

Also how does an abstract rules metapresident that in and of itself has absolutely zero impact on gameplay constitute an NPE? I get the slippery slope argument (fallacy) that it might hypothetically open the door to a future ruling that is an actual NPE but realistically how likely is that? Would any of this be being debated at all if it wasn't a pretty obviously abusive combo that the majority of players agree should be fixed even if they don't agree with how it's being done? If it wasn't the FFG regional TO that made the ruling? What are the actual chances that this situation repeats itself in such a way that a ruling that makes the game worse gets played at a regional?

My first regional season we didn’t even HAVE a regional. I’d have taken a regional full of NPE power lists over nothing

24 minutes ago, Makaze said:

How long do you think people play this game for on average...? A year is a pretty big chunk of time in most people's X-wing career and if this **** regionals season is your first then how likely are you to come back for a second?

Also how does an abstract rules metapresident that in and of itself has absolutely zero impact on gameplay constitute an NPE? I get the slippery slope argument (fallacy) that it might hypothetically open the door to a future ruling that is an actual NPE but realistically how likely is that? Would any of this be being debated at all if it wasn't a pretty obviously abusive combo that the majority of players agree should be fixed even if they don't agree with how it's being done? If it wasn't the FFG regional TO that made the ruling? What are the actual chances that this situation repeats itself in such a way that a ruling that makes the game worse gets played at a regional?

I definitley wouldn't come back if TO's were basing rulings on rumors.

It's not a slippery slope, fallacy or not. It's here right now and real. This is a rumor based on something the game designers may or may not have said.

Here is a scenario, call it a slippery slope if you will. I don't think it is:

A bunch of TO's decide to go with this ruling. Eventually it's FAQed that Trajectory Simulator does work with Genius.

We now have a ton of TO's who were willing to rule, incorrectly, on a rumor. If TO's can be goaded into something like this, they can be goaded into others. There are a lot of complaints about the game, made every day. Right or wrong. The forum is full of them. All someone has to do to get their homespun fix implemented, is start a rumor.
And even if not, my confidence in the TO community would be shot to ****. And from the disagreements over this topic, I don't think I'd be alone.

That's not an appealing environment, and I'd not care to play competitivley in such.

8 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Put it in your signature and say "this is my favorite post".

This is my favourite quote on the citadel.

1 minute ago, Koing907 said:

I definitley wouldn't come back if TO's were basing rulings on rumors.

It's not a slippery slope, fallacy or not. It's here right now and real. This is a rumor based on something the game designers may or may not have said.

Here is a scenario, call it a slippery slope if you will. I don't think it is:

A bunch of TO's decide to go with this ruling. Eventually it's FAQed that Trajectory Simulator does work with Genius.

We now have a ton of TO's who were willing to rule, incorrectly, on a rumor. If TO's can be goaded into something like this, they can be goaded into others. There are a lot of complaints about the game, made every day. Right or wrong. The forum is full of them. All someone has to do to get their homespun fix implemented, is start a rumor.

That's not an appealing environment, and I'd not care to play competitivley in such.

If, as in your hypothetical, Genius/TS was later ruled legal in a FAQ then that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe. There would be a massive chilling effect on any deviation from written rule since there would be a high profile case and point for why it shouldn't be done.

Aside from that you're basically describing a prototypical slippery slope argument. We can't possibly do thing A even though everyone agrees that thing A is a good thing because once we do thing A we might decide to do thing B as well and thing B is bad

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

If, as in your hypothetical, Genius/TS was later ruled legal in a FAQ then that would have the opposite effect of the one you describe. There would be a massive chilling effect on any deviation from written rule since there would be a high profile case and point for why it shouldn't be done.

Aside from that you're basically describing a prototypical slippery slope argument. We can't possibly do thing A even though everyone agrees that thing A is a good thing because once we do thing A we might decide to do thing B as well and thing B is bad

No. I'm arguing against the End Justifying the Means. It may be good for the game to rule that Traj Sim and Genius don't work together, but doing it based on rumor sets the precedent that rulings can be based on rumors. And that is very bad. My hypothetical may or may not come to pass, but the loophole in the system will exist.

I wrote this in the other thread on this topic. Also applies to this one. Sorry for the double post.

1 hour ago, drjkel said:

At this point, I'd rather just put the pressure on FFG and Disney to streamline their process, and that means pouring mountains of salt on their events with the brokenness than needs to be fixed. I don't want unofficial rulings through the grapevines going forward, I want clear, up to date FAQs. Going around Disney will just end in tears for everyone, they need to see the salt hurting their IP and figure out that they should either approve faster, or let some things be FAQed without approval when the goal is to remove something that's bad for the game.

This is a tough one to swallow. It means that the players--many of whom are travelling from out of town, paying for hotel rooms, burning squad building points with their families--are going to have to endure those many months under salt mountain while waiting for the slow burn to finally effect the corporate bottom line (for whom, as Blair says above, competitive play is only a small percentage, anyways...I'd put even money on them not even noticing it)...

Alternatives (for me, in order of preference):

• UNFAQ: Do what the Netrunner community did: instead of having a random email address people can email, create a living documentthat is centrally managed that is brought to the devs, who then put their clarifications in that doc. That doc is treated as golden until a FAQ gets published. Much faster feedback cycle.
• Follow FFG Game Store's lead (and only their lead) on avoiding salt mountain as they correct broken things like Final Form immediately via Marshall mandate. While ugly and potentially hard to stomach (especially if the explanation doesn't make sense), it does mean the players have a much more positive play experience, and the other Regional Marshalls have a lead to follow.
• Do what we're doing now: given ambiguity, let Marshalls decide on their own. Track the decisions in a spreadsheet. This is going to make things harder for me in ListJuggler/Meta-Wing, but since we're (the X-Wing open source tech community) already going down the path of architecting support for multiple rules variants, we're already in for a penny. This might create enough pressure for a UFAQ to kick in. (I've already heard a rumor that FFG might output something as early as this Monday to address the massive drama that has unfolded over the last few days.)
• Grind through salt mountain (described above).

I guess one question I have for this thread is, let's say that FFG OP tweets on Monday the following:

"Hey TDs and players! Until a new FAQ gets published, Genius+Trajectory Simulator does not work, and TLT can trigger Harpoon. Please use this for all Regional events and higher going forward"

Would that be enough for you?

1 hour ago, phild0 said:

Players just seem OK with "oppressive defensive combos", but not with "oppressive offensive combos". Why????

Palp Defenders got double-nerfed, and the outcry over FSR and the desire for some kind of Biggs nerf was huge. There's still at least something to your premise, however.

I'd guess that first, people don't like to have their ships annihilated. The kinds of ships which might have the green dice and mods to survive a 4 & 5 dice harpoon attacks are also often the ones who get mauled by Proton Bombs. In a smaller ship-count list, having something blown off the table really quickly is just not fun for a lot of folks. At least for me, I want to play the game. Even if I'm slowly being chipped down, unable to kill a particular opponent, I still want to keep playing.

Second, I'm not sure most existing oppressive defensive combos are as oppressive as the offensive combos are. Poe and Miranda can get burned down. Soontir is mostly gone, but for someone like him or Corran, their dice could fail them entirely from time to time. Same for Whisper (and 4 greens with just a focus isn't that strong anymore anyhow). TIE Defenders was /x7 nerfed to being "merely" very good (the way it once ignored stress, obstacles, and blocks was busted, and so it was justly errata'd).

Yeah, I almost forgot about Biggs (the first sentence was revised later on). Players certainly weren't OK with Biggs. But then he got fixed like a new kitten and it's all good.

Its too bad that this Marshall is overstepping the boundaries of his role.

Its not his place to change rules, it is his purpose to enforce proper current written rules, not make up silly interpretations or decide "this is too good, so it doesnt work"

I'm Marshall for the Regional in Montreal on the 27th-28th of January and Genius + Trajectory will be working as intended, as broken as it is, because it is up to FFG to change things and not Marshalls.

12 minutes ago, Kalandros said:

Its too bad that this Marshall is overstepping the boundaries of his role.

Its not his place to change rules, it is his purpose to enforce proper current written rules, not make up silly interpretations or decide "this is too good, so it doesnt work"

I'm Marshall for the Regional in Montreal on the 27th-28th of January and Genius + Trajectory will be working as intended, as broken as it is, because it is up to FFG to change things and not Marshalls.

Finally, someone in here besides me that knows what Marshalls are supposed to do

Curious nikk would the tweet be enough for you? or would you get behind something like UNFAQ?

BTW is there a link somewhere of what is the Marshall's job?

I found it, its here

"Marshal An event may have any number of marshals, including none. A marshal is an expert on the game’s rules and regulations and the final authority on their application during a tournament. A marshal also determines if unsporting conduct has occurred and what the appropriate remedy is, referring any recommendations for disqualification to the organizer. When a marshal is not actively performing his or her duties, he or she is a spectator and should communicate this change in status clearly."

Hmm...

• "it is his purpose to enforce proper current written rules" versus
• "the final authority on [the rules] application during a tournament"

Not trying to be difficult -- can you help me understand this? "Final authority" seems pretty unambiguous, and there isn't a carve out for Premier events as far as I can tell?

1 hour ago, Kalandros said:

Its too bad that this Marshall is overstepping the boundaries of his role.

Its not his place to change rules, it is his purpose to enforce proper current written rules, not make up silly interpretations or decide "this is too good, so it doesnt work"

I'm Marshall for the Regional in Montreal on the 27th-28th of January and Genius + Trajectory will be working as intended, as broken as it is, because it is up to FFG to change things and not Marshalls.

Wait. As intended or as written?

So FFG is going to introduce ban lists instead of FAQing cards to death? Good. I’m tiring of looking at my cards and remembering ‘oh, yeah, Deadeye is small ship only’, etc. a ban list and a FAQ amount to the same thing, you still need to be familiar with a document or material outside of the game material you purchased.

This isn’t SWCCG, it’s ok to ban certain combos. Decipher never backed down on their policy to not ban cards, only releasing hard counters to OP strategies when ‘needed’. It was admirable but also led to the ‘side board’ of personal shields and the total nightmare and fallout that was operatives.

and...

TLT vs Harpoons? Any weapon that cancels results after hitting would be in the same boat:

Tracer missiles, Beams, Ion cannons and turrets, flatchet cannons, anything else I missed. (Ion pulse missiles too!)

this is indeed a timing issue, and as far as I can figure out it would be up to initiative whether cancelling happens before or after the ‘pooning. So does that mean if the defender has initiative that the harpoon condition is resolved first?

I’m surprised no one mentioned whether Harpoons can trigger twice for Clusters (they don’t, since the timing chart considers it all one big attack since the target is only declared once-unless I’m totally wrong about it...)

far too many strange weapons in this game that do odd things to dice, and then this non-TL-spending cheaper assault missile shows up with a condition that lets tractor beams and thread tracers trigger it? And people are upset that tourneys are announcing ahead of time that certain combos are restricted? Waiting for FAQs and emails is not cutting it, direct rulings from tourneys are the way to go to clear up these messes.

Just don’t mess with GUNBOAT, she is as close to perfection as this game will ever get.

7 hours ago, sozin said:

Curious nikk would the tweet be enough for you? or would you get behind something like UNFAQ?

BTW is there a link somewhere of what is the Marshall's job?

I would rate at tweet below one of the old rules emails we used to get. It would still be from an official source (Good) but one that, to my knowledge, has never been implemented before. It would ultimately make for more grey area in my opinion.

For instance, none of this would be happening if this had come out of some backwoods regional in the Deep South (but please come Atlanta is going to be huge), but since this came out of ffg’s Game space, it’s been given a lot of extra meaning.

10 hours ago, phild0 said:

Players just seem OK with "oppressive defensive combos", but not with "oppressive offensive combos". Why????

game goes on longer, ensuring you don't necessarily get utterly ****** in a single round

though Miranda is hardly an offensive skew, given that she is incredibly flighty (doubly so because turrets don't care about facing), discourages pursuit with bombs AND (most importantly) regenerates while Nym is also incredibly flighty and discourages pursuit

this being on top of the trajectory, double poon alpha

so really it's not oppressive defensive/offensive combos, as much as ridiculous offense atop already difficult defense (unless you're also ignoring game mechanics with turrets like the Captain Doni player is). The list almost has every possible strength a list could have in the game.

similarly, jumps had fully modified PWTs, an incredibly stupid dial, incredible blocking potential, and 2 agility + 9 health each (in a list of 3, also supplemented by mindlink focus) to supplement their alpha strike

6 hours ago, gennataos said:

Wait. As intended or as written?

Both. What is written is what is intended until FFG says otherwise.

8 hours ago, sozin said:

Hmm...

• "it is his purpose to enforce proper current written rules" versus
• "the final authority on [the rules] application during a tournament"

Not trying to be difficult -- can you help me understand this? "Final authority" seems pretty unambiguous, and there isn't a carve out for Premier events as far as I can tell?

"final authority" does not mean you are the lawmaker. You are the one who decides how to apply the rules of the game when there is an issue - something ambiguous, something unclear, something that makes you ask "how do these interact together? Its not clear!" and what the FFG HQ Regional Marshall is doing is making s h i t up to suit his fancy needs to see the Genius+TS combo banned. He isn't applying the rules that are presented to him.

It is VERY clear how Genius + Trajectory Simulator work and regardless of possible changes in the future, through an official FAQ, he is simply making a wrong ruling which means he isn't doing his job as Marshall.

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

11 hours ago, phild0 said:

Players just seem OK with "oppressive defensive combos", but not with "oppressive offensive combos". Why????

game goes on longer, ensuring you don't necessarily get utterly ****** in a single round

So we want all games to go to time? Poor tourney players, everyone is going to be in for a long day (or two)

1 hour ago, ficklegreendice said:

similarly, jumps had fully modified PWTs, an incredibly stupid dial, incredible blocking potential, and 2 agility + 9 health each (in a list of 3, also supplemented by mindlink focus) to supplement their alpha strike

Hey remember Phantoms and Palp Aces! Imps were cool! Only took one FAQ each to nerf the crap outta them. Funny that....

At least GUNBOAT is making waves, rocking the BOAT.

37 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

So we want all games to go to time? Poor tourney players, everyone is going to be in for a long day (or two)

Yes, because OBVIOUSLY the ONLY alternative to one extreme is the other extreme

10 hours ago, sozin said:

I guess one question I have for this thread is, let's say that FFG OP tweets on Monday the following:

"Hey TDs and players! Until a new FAQ gets published, Genius+Trajectory Simulator does not work, and TLT can trigger Harpoon. Please use this for all Regional events and higher going forward"

Would that be enough for you?

any form of communication from ffg op or their devs would suffice. And like I asked in the other thread, is that too much too ask?

I don't trust those two (the devs) to make a rules decision without a peer tested and reviewed FAQ after the k-wing incident....

something something your k-wing is destroyed