So this is turning into similar problem the NFL has on if this is a catch or not.

44 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

So this is turning into similar problem the NFL has on if this is a catch or not.

No that one is much much worse.

This is a corner case on a relatively new mechanic in a small game.

The NFL catch issue is a fundamental mechanic in a several billion dollar a year (not including gambling) sports league that has existed for decades and decades.

The similarity are that they're both poorly worded.

The difference is the NFL has changed the rule from one set of ambiguous language "football move" and replaced it with more technical, but no more clear language. Since then, the NFL has ignored the issue entirely and seem content to hang every referee and announcer out to dry as they try to form their profession around a gaping hole in the rulebook.

FFG will fix it, but slowly.

26 minutes ago, Sekac said:

No that one is much much worse.

This is a corner case on a relatively new mechanic in a small game.

The NFL catch issue is a fundamental mechanic in a several billion dollar a year (not including gambling) sports league that has existed for decades and decades.

The similarity are that they're both poorly worded.

The difference is the NFL has changed the rule from one set of ambiguous language "football move" and replaced it with more technical, but no more clear language. Since then, the NFL has ignored the issue entirely and seem content to hang every referee and announcer out to dry as they try to form their profession around a gaping hole in the rulebook.

FFG will fix it, but slowly.

???

...and totaly agree.

8 hours ago, AlexW said:

TLT doesn’t follow the normal damage sequence.

True, but that's not my point. TLT deals a damage if "the attack hits" but doesn't specify precisely when. With that information we know it must be somewhere between step 6.4 (which is when we check if an attack hits) and sometime before performing the second shot (after step 7 and before 8). So the question is if the damage is dealt during step 7 or not, and considering that step 7 is called the "deal damage step" and that the TLT card doesn't specify exactly when the damage is dealt, I conclude that the TLT, being an attack, deals damage during the same step in which all other attacks deal damage. If the card would say "when this attack hits" or "after this attack hits" then we'd have a more specific timing window (right after 6.4 and simultaneous with the harpooned condition) but as it stands, I deal damage during the deal damage step unless instructed to do otherwise.

Just saw that Games and Stuff Regionals in Maryland will be following the TO from FFG’s Game Center and rules for this weekend that Trajectory Simulator and Genius will NOT work together.

Thank the Maker!

I also liked that their TO polled the players to see what they wanted. Overwhelmingly (80-6) in favor of the new ruling.

3 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Just saw that Games and Stuff Regionals in Maryland will be following the TO from FFG’s Game Center and rules for this weekend that Trajectory Simulator and Genius will NOT work together.

Thank the Maker!

I also liked that their TO polled the players to see what they wanted. Overwhelmingly (80-6) in favor of the new ruling.

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

Just now, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

No it’s better than good, it’s great. Chicago, Minnesota, Maryland: these guys get it.

2 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

It's a game, so play how you want? There's not some major industry with people's livelihoods depending on all x wing tournaments being played the same way. If some use different rules than others, who freaking cares?

9 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

Mutiny! Huzzah!

12 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Mutiny! Huzzah!

27 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

Sometimes mutiny is the right choice, and TOs first and foremost want their players to enjoy the event.

25 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Eh, tournament comp kept the GW scene going for a long ol' time. As long as things are clear in advance so players aren't caught off guard on arrival I don't see an issue. Particularly with an issue as big as this - we already saw last year what happens when the meta begins to eat away at how enjoyable the scene is, at least people seem to be more proactive in not letting it happen again.

Edit: double post with a post in the middle somehow....

5 hours ago, darthlurker said:

True, but that's not my point. TLT deals a damage if "the attack hits" but doesn't specify precisely when. With that information we know it must be somewhere between step 6.4 (which is when we check if an attack hits) and sometime before performing the second shot (after step 7 and before 8). So the question is if the damage is dealt during step 7 or not, and considering that step 7 is called the "deal damage step" and that the TLT card doesn't specify exactly when the damage is dealt, I conclude that the TLT, being an attack, deals damage during the same step in which all other attacks deal damage. If the card would say "when this attack hits" or "after this attack hits" then we'd have a more specific timing window (right after 6.4 and simultaneous with the harpooned condition) but as it stands, I deal damage during the deal damage step unless instructed to do otherwise.

I understand that perspective, but I think the timing becomes problematic because Step 7 on the chart is about dice results. Since TLT cancels dice after the damage, if you're dealing damage, one could then argue you go through the steps of the chart because you don't cancel until after damage is dealt.

The question is less about when you deal the damage but when you cancel those results (since canceling or not canceling determines whether harpoon condition is triggered).

I think the language is sufficient to apply the damage at 6.4 based that "each time" is the same as when "when."

The TLT & Harpoon condition is one of the dumbest interactions and examples of sloppy wording and overly complicated timing charts and having to involve initiative.

Simple "spirit of the rule" should be "NO". TLT's should not trigger harpoon condition. The end. But here we are.

9 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I understand that perspective, but I think the timing becomes problematic because Step 7 on the chart is about dice results. Since TLT cancels dice after the damage, if you're dealing damage, one could then argue you go through the steps of the chart because you don't cancel until after damage is dealt.

The question is less about when you deal the damage but when you cancel those results (since canceling or not canceling determines whether harpoon condition is triggered).

I think the language is sufficient to apply the damage at 6.4 based that "each time" is the same as when "when."

This was already discussed on this forum and most of people seems to agree. (here for instance https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/262936-harpooned-and-tlt/)

But I don't get the second part of Kyle Dekker's post : were some people really wondering if the TLT could trigger the same harpooned condition twice ?!?

7 minutes ago, Cartchan said:

This was already discussed on this forum and most of people seems to agree. (here for instance https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/262936-harpooned-and-tlt/)

But I don't get the second part of Kyle Dekker's post : were some people really wondering if the TLT could trigger the same harpooned condition twice ?!?

I agree. I was just pointing out to Darthlurker the problems that causes.

Kyle misunderstood the second question I think. He then clarified in the posts that TLT Crist will trigger Harpoon regardless of initiative.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

It's a game, so play how you want? There's not some major industry with people's livelihoods depending on all x wing tournaments being played the same way. If some use different rules than others, who freaking cares?

If we’re ignoring some of the rules, then hey, let’s ignore some more.

Trip Deadeye jumpmasters are back baby.

10 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

If we’re ignoring some of the rules, then hey, let’s ignore some more.

Trip Deadeye jumpmasters are back baby.

But I already hole-punched all my Jumpmaster pilot cards!

It'll probably be okay.

1 hour ago, nikk whyte said:

This is not good. This is not how you run a tournament.

Considering the wording on the cards is abundently clear, electing to ignore them is tantamount to a TO mutiny.

Just want to point out that the United States was founded on mutiny. History makes men heroes and what you see as rebellion may be viewed someday as the beginning of freedom.

18 minutes ago, nikk whyte said:

If we’re ignoring some of the rules, then hey, let’s ignore some more.

Trip Deadeye jumpmasters are back baby.

If there's a group of people that want to run a tournament with pre-nerf Scouts, no skin off my nose as long as they let people know ahead of time.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

If there's a group of people that want to run a tournament with pre-nerf Scouts, no skin off my nose as long as they let people know ahead of time.

Thing is here we are talking about a Regional, part of the official tournaments. Some consistency is expected.

Just now, Cartchan said:

Thing is here we are talking about a Regional, part of the official tournaments. Some consistency is expected.

But if it's not the same, nothing bad actually happens. I agree that consistency is good, but it's not the ultimate goal. This isn't a qualifier for a $5000 purse or anything. As a TO, if I had to make a choice between the overall enjoyment of my players and adherence to a rule that FFG's own store is ignoring, it's not a hard question.

FFG:

FFG also:

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

But if it's not the same, nothing bad actually happens. I agree that consistency is good, but it's not the ultimate goal. This isn't a qualifier for a $5000 purse or anything. As a TO, if I had to make a choice between the overall enjoyment of my players and adherence to a rule that FFG's own store is ignoring, it's not a hard question.

For a fact, I have first hand knowledge of people that paid rent on store championship winnings.

Dont assume anything. Especially that you know better about game design than anyone else. We have rules for a reason. Follow them.