28 minutes ago, Whingewood said:

Activate a Character or Support, page 14 Rules Reference:

"All of the dice associated with a character (its character and upgrade dice) must be rolled when that character is activated."

Whingewood, Greedos power has NOTHING to do with Activation. So everything you said about it is invalid. It is a triggered effect that happens BEFORE hes defeated. So discussing activation at any length is moot. having 50 Greedo dice in his set aside zone does not interfere with the rules of activation, starting character dice, or the price point paid for them. It only comes into play " before he is defeated ."

Further supporting this is the section on "OUT-OF-PLAY"

OUT-OF-PLAY
Cards in a player’s hand, deck, discard pile, and set-aside
zone are out of play and their abilities cannot be used until
they are played or return to play, or a card says otherwise.

as this discusses CARDs, and not Dice, i think its safe to say that what we know about Dice being in the set aside zone, they fall into the "out-of-play" category.

The way it's written, it needs a FAQ, but the intent is that you can roll 0, 1, or 2 of his dice before he is defeated.

no tournament judge will let you do it, no matter how rules lawyery you can be. It's a good find, but really impractical.

i agree it needs to be FAQ'd, but not only that, it needs errata. This is what i have been saying. But my biggest point is this ... if rules guys cant see the problem here WITHIN the rules, then that bodes a larger problem for the game.

its not rules "lawyery" to have a sound understanding of the rules as a whole. its called being a responsible player. "lawyery" would be picking pieces in and of themselves to support something that does NOT work, but being deceptive into making it appear as if they do. picking apart "activation" rules, that have nothing to do with the triggered effects is "lawyering." trying to re-interpret "set-aside zone" to mean "use common sense" isn't lawyering per se, but its just as bad. Having been a clix player for years, there is no such thing as "common" sense when it comes to gamers.

This needs to be fixed. Not FAQ'd, but errata'd. I'd even go so far as to say leave it alone and let it do what it says ...... just ban it from tournament play, and learn from this going forward. If you want to have fun with crazy Greedo dice, have at it .... just not in a tournament setting. Because let's face it, ban lists are a fact of life for card games like this.

Players can set aside any number of dice that
match cards in their deck , or are referenced by cards in their
deck.

Characters are not part of your deck.

43 minutes ago, silversurfr77 said:

What rule supports this? Is HIS a keyword in the rules text? Or does it refer to

CHARACTER DIE
A character die is a die that matches a character.

I understand what you're saying about mirror matches, but the same rule for Krennec and Seventh Sister that doesn't allow you to roll an opponents Death Trooper or Droid would be the same rule that wouldn't allow Greedo to do it. this doesn't help. And i never said it was a loophole. It's how the rules work in regards to set aside zone and the golden rule.

"His" doesn't have be a keyword, it denotes ownership. If you want to disregard ownership of dice then a lot of cards referring to character and upgrade dice become very wonky. For example play "Feint" and not only remove you own character dice, but any of an opponents mirror dice and ALL upgrade dice.

Jerrus, you're right. it DOES denote ownership. That's why it doesn't affect opponents dice. But when we're discussing what a character die is, its a die that matches a character card ...... nothing more, nothing less. Greedo says HIS character dice. Feint says IT'S, in regards to upgrades and what not. An opponents upgrade dice on another character, regardless of whether they are matching or not, are not IT'S upgrade dice. in that case, they would be THEIR upgrade dice.

But the way the previous user was trying to use HIS as a gotcha was being disingenuous. And that was why i said what i did. Greedo's character dice, in this instance, refer to Dice that match HIS character card. (Also, not an opponents Greedo, or THEIR.) Whether they are in the set aside zone or on his card does not factor into whether or not they are still HIS, because no matter where they are, if they are part of your force, they are HIS. They match.

2 hours ago, silversurfr77 said:

Mep ...... I thought i saw in another thread that your are a rules arb of some sorts? Is that true? Or a liaison between the rules guys or something like that?

I'm like Rey, I'm no one.

31 minutes ago, nismojoe said:

Players can set aside any number of dice that
match cards in their deck , or are referenced by cards in their
deck.

Characters are not part of your deck.

If that is true, then Krennec and Seventh Sister shouldnt be able to work, because THOSE character cards are not part of the deck either. That was why i initially used Krennec as a reference. If that is true, then where does the Death Trooper or Droid die come from? The answer is the set aside zone. Krennec and Seventh Sister establish a precedent.

And in this instance, we would refer back to the golden rule.

THE GOLDEN RULE
If the text of a card directly contradicts the rules of the
game, the text of the card takes precedence . If you can
follow both the rules of the game and the text of the
card, do so.

i dont see how the golden rule would let you magically conjure up more than 2 character dice for greedo, its not telling you to have more than the normal number of dice in the set aside zone while Krennic and Sister do tell you to

Greedo is not directly contradicting the rules, which is what the golden rule is for. It has to specifically tell you to do something for it to trump a general rule, which Greedo makes no mention of the sorts.

The problem is it says to roll "any number" of his character dice. "Any number" is a variable. It is undefined, and as i've pointed out, nothing in the rules defines "any number." it is simply an undefined variable. It might as well say "X" without defining what X is. If you notice on Seventh Sister, it defines the X value of the die. But just becasue Greedo uses language instead of math variables, doesnt change what it actually is. "Any number," as is written, is just an undefined variable, becasue it can be ANY NUMBER ...... it can be 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 75. The only thing it cant be is pi, because THAT would be irrational.

better yet, what if Krennec said: roll any number of Death Trooper dice into your pool ......

would we even be discussing what "any number" means, or where they come from??

absolutely not. there would be a clarification and an errata issued posthaste.

1 hour ago, silversurfr77 said:

Jerrus, you're right. it DOES denote ownership. That's why it doesn't affect opponents dice. But when we're discussing what a character die is, its a die that matches a character card ...... nothing more, nothing less. Greedo says HIS character dice. Feint says IT'S, in regards to upgrades and what not. An opponents upgrade dice on another character, regardless of whether they are matching or not, are not IT'S upgrade dice. in that case, they would be THEIR upgrade dice.

But the way the previous user was trying to use HIS as a gotcha was being disingenuous. And that was why i said what i did. Greedo's character dice, in this instance, refer to Dice that match HIS character card. (Also, not an opponents Greedo, or THEIR.) Whether they are in the set aside zone or on his card does not factor into whether or not they are still HIS, because no matter where they are, if they are part of your force, they are HIS. They match.

I don't think I understand what you mean. You seem to agree that an opponents dice are not "his", because in that case it would be "theirs". Then you seem claim that any Greedo dice in the "set aside zone" are "his". Wouldn't they also be an opponents dice, and in that case also "their" dice.

1 hour ago, silversurfr77 said:

The problem is it says to roll "any number" of his character dice. "Any number" is a variable. It is undefined, and as i've pointed out, nothing in the rules defines "any number." it is simply an undefined variable. It might as well say "X" without defining what X is. If you notice on Seventh Sister, it defines the X value of the die. But just becasue Greedo uses language instead of math variables, doesnt change what it actually is. "Any number," as is written, is just an undefined variable, becasue it can be ANY NUMBER ...... it can be 0, 1, 2, 3, 5, 75. The only thing it cant be is pi, because THAT would be irrational.

But there is still the limitation of "his" dice. If it had been worded "Any number of Greedo character dice", I would be inclined to agree with you, but it states "Any number of his character dice".

Ok pal. You buy yourself 30 greedo dice and show up to a game with them.

Enjoy your opponents response. I'm sure they'll be mightily impressed and totally agree with your stance.

Yes, the HIS denotes ownership...... BY THE CARD, not the player. It's talking about dice owned by the card, how many dice owned by the card is determined by whether or not it is elite.

If it wanted to refer to any die owned by the player in the set aside zone it would say "Roll any number of YOUR Greedo character dice into the pool" and then maybe it would work as you say.

Heck, using your definition that HIS equals character dice owned by the player, you wouldn't have to limit it to Greedo dice, just throw ALL your character dice into the set aside zone and roll them in.

4 hours ago, silversurfr77 said:

Whingewood, Greedos power has NOTHING to do with Activation. So everything you said about it is invalid. It is a triggered effect that happens BEFORE hes defeated. So discussing activation at any length is moot. having 50 Greedo dice in his set aside zone does not interfere with the rules of activation, starting character dice, or the price point paid for them. It only comes into play " before he is defeated ."

Further supporting this is the section on "OUT-OF-PLAY"

OUT-OF-PLAY
Cards in a player’s hand, deck, discard pile, and set-aside
zone are out of play and their abilities cannot be used until
they are played or return to play, or a card says otherwise.

as this discusses CARDs, and not Dice, i think its safe to say that what we know about Dice being in the set aside zone, they fall into the "out-of-play" category.

Yes, I understand that Greedo's ability has nothing to do with activating him. I was using those parts of the rules reference to highlight what the game denotes as a character's dice:

Characters, page 5 Rule Reference:

" Each character has one or two dice that are rolled when that character is activated."

A character has one or two dice.

Another great response by Stu35. Nothing but incredulity with ZERO rules reference. Whenever i have a rules issue, I usually start with incredulity, and then go onto name calling. I often win arguments that way.

As i said above, if krennec said "roll any number of Death Trooper dice into your pool," would we be having this discussion? Im guessing no.

1 hour ago, Jerrus said:

But there is still the limitation of "his" dice. If it had been worded " Any number of Greedo character dice" , I would be inclined to agree with you, but it states "Any number of his character dice".

Jerrus, this is just semantics. Whether it says "Greedo character dice" or "his (regarding Greedo) character dice" ...... it would be saying the same thing. Greedo is a noun and his is a pronoun, but as stated, they mean the same thing.

In this instance they're interchangeable. Using "their" dice was me trying to explain the difference between player vs. opponent. There's only so many examples i can give before things start getting tongue tied.

No, saying "his character die" is not the same thing as saying "Greedo character die" because for it to be the same thing it would need to be "Greedo's character die", that 's is what makes it possessive. And yes it is semantics, the exact semantic you are ignoring to make your false case that a Greedo Character die that isn't owned by the card in play is the same as an Greedo die that is owned by the card.

CHARACTERS - POINT VALUE(S) (p6):
A character’s point value(s) is how many points it costs to include it on a team. If there are two values, then the smaller value is how many points it costs to use one of that character’s dice, and the larger value is how many points it costs to use two of that die. A character with two of its dice is called an elite character. (Please note this does not refer to activation or anything, you get 1-2 character dice based on the points you spend on the Character.)

SELF-REFERENTIAL EFFECTS (p19):
When a card’s ability text refers to its own card type, such as “this upgrade” or “this character,” it refers to itself only, and not to other copies (by title) of the card.

SETUP (p13):
Players roll their starting character dice and add up the values rolled (the white numbers). If there is a tie, they roll again. The player with the highest total chooses which battlefield to fight on. The player whose battlefield is being used controls the battlefield and places it next to their deck. The player whose battlefield is not being used sets their battlefield aside and gives 2 shields to their characters, distributed as they wish. After rolling, return all character dice to their matching cards.

DICE ON CARDS (p10):
When dice are not in a dice pool, they are placed on their matching card.
These dice are not active, cannot be manipulated, and none of their sides are considered to be showing.

SET-ASIDE ZONE (p10):
Each player has a set-aside zone. At the beginning of the game, some dice are set aside. These are dice that can enter play via cards. Players can set aside any number of dice that match cards in their deck, or are referenced by cards in their deck. Players may hide these dice from their opponent using a tray or a dice bag.

Cards can also enter or leave the set-aside zone. Cards in the set-aside zone are open knowledge unless otherwise noted. Defeated characters are placed in the set-aside zone, and some cards, like Premonitions (D131) or battlefields that are not chosen during setup, also use this zone.

So you have payed 11 points for Greedo, he would be elite and come with 2 dice as per the rules on page 6. You will note that this introduces the definition of a character dice and how many dice are character dice.
Greedo is a Self-Referencial Effect, you may roll his Character Dice. Keep in mind that when you payed for Greedo you defined how many Character Dice he has for the game.
When you roll Greedo to start the game do you use any more than the 1-2 dice you paid for? Does this not assist in helping cement the idea of the number of dice that are Character Dice?
Dice on cards, during a game with an Elite Greedo how many dice would be on its card at the start of a round? Which gives us yet another point at which we have a count of Character Dice.
Dice in your set-aside zone are nothing unless brought into play by an effect.
In fact we can also see the dice move from card to pool to set-aside zone in the rules, and a Character Dice only gets set-aside after the character is defeated.

You have quoted the Golden Rule, it applies in as much as the effect on the card breaks the rules. However, how does Greedo introduce a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th Character Dice?

You keep calling on Krennic as an example. Krennic may only have 1 or 2 Character Dice, the Death Trooper is brought from the set-aside zone as a card effect and that specific dice could not be used for events and the like that said "remove a character dice" you didn't pay for the dice as part of a character, nor will it return to a character card once it is resolved, it will be set aside.

TLDR:
You get 1-2 character dice and Greedo talks to his Character Dice.
Krennic's Death Tropper is not a Character Dice.
Greedo doesn't add character dice, so the Golden Rule doesn't help.

That's an interesting point. The only thing I would say is that nowhere on Greedos card does it say "this character," which if you read the definition under self-referential effects, is quoted.

Greedos ability doesn't say to roll "this characters character dice." It says to roll his CHARACTER DICE. The dice are not self referencing. It should be errata'd.

2 minutes ago, silversurfr77 said:

That's an interesting point. The only thing I would say is that nowhere on Greedos card does it say "this character," which if you read the definition under self-referential effects, is quoted.

Greedos ability doesn't say to roll "this characters character dice." It says to roll his CHARACTER DICE. The dice are not self referencing. It should be errata'd.

So the text on the card that is referencing the dice that matches that specific card is not self-referencing? I could perhaps roll in you Greedo dice if you had them?

So your "non semantics" argument is that "that person's possessions" and "his possessions" are not inter-changable with equivalent meanings.

1 hour ago, silversurfr77 said:

Another great response by Stu35. Nothing but incredulity with ZERO rules reference

Plenty of people have put up rules references. You're willfully ignoring or misinterpreting them for your "fun" little experiment in trying to rules-lawyer the game.

Frankly it's all I can do not to go into a lengthy, highly insulting tirade against you, which would no doubt break the code of conduct for this forum. If I were you I'd say "thank you" to the people who have had the time and patience to answer this scenario of yours by showing you the rules, and then move on.

Congratulations, I think this is in fact the stupidest topic I've ever seen on this board.

and i thought my "EMP Droid Characters" topic got stupid lol