1 minute ago, Norsehound said:

As for the raider I'll concede there's probably an ideal way to play with it that I just can't see. I've tried playing it conservatively, but that also got them killed when they couldn't kill massed y/x wings fast enough for thier BCC norra combinations to obliterate them. Fighters are too reactive on deployment.

Did you not support the Raider with squadrons of your own?

I've seen people mistakenly think Raiders are a replacement for fighter coverage and that rarely goes well. The two work together pretty well, though.

Yeah, that's how I ran them last for that reason, and every Raider I've destroyed has been sans fighter escort cover.

It does beg the question though, for what you get in a Raider wouldn't it be more effective for the same amount of points to take squadrons and a Gozanti? They move just as fast, they defend themselves better, and do the same amount of damage in one activation spread over more attacks. This setup is also much easier to use.

It would have been better if the Raider had upgrades to help it push around fighters. A support team slot to take Fighter Coordination Teams (with or without Expanded Hangars) could tow around the figher cover the Raider needed in this kind of situation, but the only way to make it work now is to bank squad commands on the Raider. Then again, such a command could also work with Boarding teams... *shrug* might be worth a try in my next patrol game, such a setup.

4 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

It does beg the question though, for what you get in a Raider wouldn't it be more effective for the same amount of points to take squadrons and a Gozanti? They move just as fast, they defend themselves better, and do the same amount of damage in one activation spread over more attacks. This setup is also much easier to use.

You're only thinking of the Raider as a flak boat, which is another pretty common Raider mistake. The Raider is probably the most flexible Imperial ship (especially for its cost). It's good at flak and it's good at going after ships (again, for its cost) - its main downside is its shorter range. Pigeonholing it into only one role sells it pretty short.

Clearly I'm still trying to understand what this ship is supposed to do.

Sure, it's clearly close range. It's a cheap APT delivery platform and loves Ordnance Experts. The problem is it dies on the approach whenever anything with a respectable battery (or fighters) looks at it.

Speed 4 can help it get to where it needs to be, but making it work requires (as I see it) specific conditions:

• You need the first turn activation so after moving, the Raider can attack and not instantly die.
• You're crowding the target so at least one of two Raider is going to get the shot off (in which case you're sacrificing one of two 44+ ships).
• You play it slow as an ambush ship to take advantage of someone moving into your strike zone (in which case how well can it survive multiple long-medium range shots before it's done?)

Contrast this to how well an ISD can handle any situation, or a Gozanti with two or three ace fighter squadrons in the same situation, or how robust the Demolisher is under the same circumstances. I'm still thinking watching one of your games Snip can help me understand the best way to use this. I only clued in that this ship had value after I realized clon could go from out-of-range to close in one move, but I also feel having first player is essential in that kind of list.

In the end I don't think I'll be convinced until I see a game where Raiders are run well. Other options are more reliable, easier to use, and more forgiving. *shrug*

8 hours ago, Darth Lupine said:

@beefcake4000, what I want to know, is where did you get the ATATs hanging on the Gozantis...

Yep, shapeways as the others said. They come as a one piece mini including the gozanti and the AT-AT. Great stuff

6 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Beautiful ships there beefy!

After reading, and my own experiences, I'm really amazed at the value of almost all of the Empire's ships. Right now, as far as value goes, only the Interdictor is a bit overpriced.

Every other ship gives you something that you want/need for a fair price.

ISD - Large all-rounder. Kills everything.

VSD - Defend a position while sending squads. Has been buffed in a huge way over the last few waves. (And I've played it successfully since Wave 0 darn it.)

Gladiator - Still the best little hitter in the game with Demo. Without, a great little ship that people don't use enough.

Raider - Winner in the antisquad olympics. The ultimate glass shotgun.

Arquitens - a tougher than you think long range chucker.

Quasar - You want squads? I'll give you squads on the cheap!

Gozanti - I'm a little bastard! (Beefcake has 5 of them!?)

Interdictor - total board control may be possible, but it comes at a steep price.

I seriously would give them all 5/5 minus the Interdictor right now. I'd set that at 3/5 right now. All of these however, can be 5/5 ships in the correct build.

I guess a big part of the purpose behind the writing is to support new players into the game a bit easier. As an experienced player you can certainly get value out of most things but as a new player you need an idea of relative strength so you know where to start. In my mind you're going to have an easier time using an ISD or a Demo than anything else in most games. The rest are seriously niche and require complex builds and skill sets.

P.S I have 6 gozantis, one was broken at time of photo. Use them in combinations of red/blue dice varients with a Vader fleet.

10 hours ago, Ophion said:

The thing with vics is they are too expensive to lose but they arent mobile enough to be a striking ship. And they dont have much to offer in a one big one plus 5 floater meta. Hopefully wave 7 will upset that a bit!

They are pretty rare here now, but back in wave 2 and 3 they were fairly popular in pairs. But a gunnery team isd2 will quite happily take two of them on at once and win.

What they lack in mobility they make up for in range and coverage. When I fly 3 Vics, there’s absolutely nothing I’d rather fight than a 5+1. If their flotillas try to become involved as anything other than relay nodes, they will die. If they charge their large in, it will often also die. If they do both, the beating won’t slacken at all (Gunnery Team.) I’ve had BTA surrender round 3 because it was half dead before it could kill anything. GT ISDs are a legitimate threat, but the real question is usually whether they’ll kill one VSD or two before they die. Bombers and torpedo boats are the truly scary lists IMO. While critics of the ship are entitled to their viewpoint, I’m wondering how many have actually tried running multiple *capacitor* VSD-IIs before.

9 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

What they lack in mobility they make up for in range and coverage. When I fly 3 Vics, there’s absolutely nothing I’d rather fight than a 5+1. If their flotillas try to become involved as anything other than relay nodes, they will die. If they charge their large in, it will often also die. If they do both, the beating won’t slacken at all (Gunnery Team.) I’ve had BTA surrender round 3 because it was half dead before it could kill anything. GT ISDs are a legitimate threat, but the real question is usually whether they’ll kill one VSD or two before they die. Bombers and torpedo boats are the truly scary lists IMO. While critics of the ship are entitled to their viewpoint, I’m wondering how many have actually tried running multiple *capacitor* VSD-IIs before.

I’ve never faced 3, just 2. They put on the hurt, but both times I was running an Ackbar list and had the accuracies to put up a lot of damage. I know I’d rather have 1 than 2, but have not faced or tried 3

@Norsehound you should try this fleet. It has all the ships you've been questioning. Vic II DC cannon, non-Demo Glad, and 2 ER Raiders. And no squads. I've won 2 tournaments with it, and placed top 4 a few times with a variant. Works great against squadrons too with the Raiders.

Deployment is simple. Vic is last and should be the center of your fleet. I tend to pair the Raiders on the weak side and the Glads on the strong side. For example, against an MC80 which is pointed to cut across my fleet, the Raiders will be placed on the rear of the MC80, while the Glads are placed to run into the front of the MC80.

Against squadrons, the Raiders are sacrificed to save the Glads and the Vic. They should be run in front of a squadron ball baiting your opponent to attack them. Otherwise the Raider gets to attack. This enables you to have the Raiders go near the end of your activation order, since you expect them to die. Now you can activate the Vic or Glads higher up.

If I'm first player, I try to engage at the bottom of round 3 with the Vic. It gets last activation and uses DC at long range, and I prioritize flotillas. Move at speed 2 to get into medium. The Vic goes first in round 4 and finishes off any flotillas, and proceeds to attack the largest target. You should be able to kill a flotilla or 2, or at least take out a small ship putting you up on activations. This puts your opponent in a difficult position, because your flagship has just activated, but you have 2 Glads and 2 Raiders either in range, or in medium waiting for a ship to move into range. What typically happens is the Raiders get attacked, which is great, and the Vic is left mostly undamaged. With JJ, it can re-position very easily.

Demo does normal Demo things. Insidious should not prioritize getting into rear arc. That's just a benefit if your opponent flies past it. Insidious is best at taking on small ships, or supporting Demo attacking a large ship.

Relay Delay fleets are my favorite. Don't bother going for the carriers. Just circle around the ball of squads and attack them.

This fleet struggles against doom pickles. It's just hard to survive the huge amount of damage being thrown. I've had great success against bomber builds, but not against Rieekan.

Hopefully this helps. It's a really fun fleet to play since you have so many ships which are actually throwing dice.

Name: Dual Glads + Vic
Faction: Imperial
Commander: Moff Jerjerrod
Total Points: 399

Assault: Most Wanted
Defense: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation: Solar Corona

Victory II (85)
• Moff Jerjerrod (23)
• Minister Tua (2)
• Gunnery Team (7)
• Disposable Capacitors (3)
• XI7 Turbolasers (6)
• Leading Shots (4)
• Electronic Countermeasures (7)
= 137 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Demolisher (10)
= 75 Points

Gladiator I (56)
• Ordnance Experts (4)
• Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
• Insidious (3)
= 68 Points

Raider I (44)
• External Racks (3)
= 47 Points

Raider I (44)
• External Racks (3)
= 47 Points

Gozanti Cruisers (23)
• Comms Net (2)
= 25 Points

Squadrons:
= 0 Points

20 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

What they lack in mobility they make up for in range and coverage. When I fly 3 Vics, there’s absolutely nothing I’d rather fight than a 5+1. If their flotillas try to become involved as anything other than relay nodes, they will die. If they charge their large in, it will often also die. If they do both, the beating won’t slacken at all (Gunnery Team.) I’ve had BTA surrender round 3 because it was half dead before it could kill anything. GT ISDs are a legitimate threat, but the real question is usually whether they’ll kill one VSD or two before they die. Bombers and torpedo boats are the truly scary lists IMO. While critics of the ship are entitled to their viewpoint, I’m wondering how many have actually tried running multiple *capacitor* VSD-IIs before.

True in that like i said we havent seen them for a long time in pairs (wave2 basically). I ran the dcap vsd2 when wave 6 came out, found it great for flotilla killing vs rebels because they need to be involved in the battle. But a ackbar defiance was quite happy to stand off and blow it up.

What general are you using with the vics? Im just worried that with my jerjerrod isd i wouldnt expect to be taking front arc fire from both.

46 minutes ago, Ophion said:

True in that like i said we havent seen them for a long time in pairs (wave2 basically). I ran the dcap vsd2 when wave 6 came out, found it great for flotilla killing vs rebels because they need to be involved in the battle. But a ackbar defiance was quite happy to stand off and blow it up.

What general are you using with the vics? Im just worried that with my jerjerrod isd i wouldnt expect to be taking front arc fire from both.

My favorite list is as follows:

Moar Vics!

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 397/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Minister Tua ( 2 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 133 total ship cost

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 100 total ship cost

Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Disposable Capacitors ( 3 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 100 total ship cost

8 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 64 points)

Motti and Jerjerrod are about tied, as they both do situationally great things for Vics. Blockade Run is an amazing objective for the list, as it fixes the maneuverability problem (it's sure not there for the points, after all. ) DTT is a little kinder to the VSD's moderate dice pool than LS. Three activations is low, but the combination of low speed (you're not coming into their range as easily) and long range (they'll often come to you) does a decent job compensating for this. When Strategic Adviser comes out, I'll eagerly add it (either by swapping out the ECM for RBD, or swapping out Motti for JJ.) It's not perfect, but it can make a lot of lists profoundly uncomfortable. If you give something like this a try, let me know how it does!

13 hours ago, TallGiraffe said:

So the regular gladiator is garbage?

It's not garbage, it's just underwhelming by comparison to other options. It doesn't have the same overt lethality-per-point as the Demolisher variant and doesn't bring many useful upgrades to the table for supporting your greater fleet design. I have to pay a 7 point Intel Officer Tax just to seriously threaten most ships because otherwise it has no realistic ability to ensure accuracy results. Also, Gladiators pay a points premium for squadron values they don't really have any good reason to use.

Compare to the MC30 which has native speed 4, a defensive retrofit, thick shields on all sides and the ability to guarantee accuracy results from all facings for only a slight cost increase, so it can frequently pack light upgrades and still be cost effective. Point-for-point, the Gladiator platform could be better. It's the Demolisher title that is critical to making it so cost effective.

2 hours ago, Norsehound said:

Clearly I'm still trying to understand what this ship is supposed to do.

I agree. Not to be rude, but I feel like I have this conversation with you about once every two or three months and each time we have it you use the same arguments, which makes me feel like whatever I've said previously amounted to not much; this is frustrating when I type out big long posts (...like I'm doing again).

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Sure, it's clearly close range. It's a cheap APT delivery platform and loves Ordnance Experts.

It's honestly more of an External Racks ship. It doesn't get enough black dice (sans Screed) to consistently trigger APTs. The External Racks are cheaper, they're flexible on which arc they're useful on, and they can be used while flakking (one-shotting a clutch 4 or 5-hull squad on occasion can be glorious, and hitting a brace ace that felt safe at 3 hull is also fun).

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The problem is it dies on the approach whenever anything with a respectable battery (or fighters) looks at it.

Not if you have at least activation parity, not if you're running it with a commander that makes it work (Ozzel, Motti to an extent, Jerry to an extent, Screed). It shouldn't be taking much fire, and it can handle most long-ranged attacks all right with double evade and brace. Repair commands can drastically prolong its lifespan when done at the right time to move shields around (usually to the front, from the rear or far side). Raiders like to activate last (either in absolute terms of at the very least after whatever is in their immediate area). They don't like heading right down the middle of the table where several things can line up shots on them unless there's a bigger threat that requires enough attention for the Raider to go unnoticed, but you need to be sure that's the case.

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Speed 4 can help it get to where it needs to be, but making it work requires (as I see it) specific conditions:

• You need the first turn activation so after moving, the Raider can attack and not instantly die.
• You're crowding the target so at least one of two Raider is going to get the shot off (in which case you're sacrificing one of two 44+ ships).
• You play it slow as an ambush ship to take advantage of someone moving into your strike zone (in which case how well can it survive multiple long-medium range shots before it's done?)

Nobody who has spoken in support of the Raider has specified any of those conditions. In response to the points themselves:

1. @PT106 and I specifically stressed that first activation is not required at all. Raiders are happy to lie in waiting. First activation opens up more options, but it's not a requirement.
2. It's rare that I go for "human wave"-style attacks with Raiders where I'm trying to overload something with them. That's the kind of tactic you use when you're running right into the nastiest arc of whatever you're trying to kill, and it's the sort of thing I'd only consider if/when the target is nearly dead and that's the only way to ensure I get it to "actually dead." In that case, I'm trading up by sacrificing a Raider to destroy a pricier ship. Normally Raiders should be maneuvering into the worst arcs of whatever they're going after and/or staying at longer ranges of the nastier arcs and "catching" ships that move into them.
3. Why are you putting the Raider in range of multiple attackers up to medium range? It's extremely maneuverable (especially at speed 2) and shouldn't be there. It can handle a few attacks at long range, especially if you're good at angling it so all the shots can't go to the same hull zone, but otherwise it's not designed to handle that for the same reason other cheap corvettes aren't designed to handle that. Medium range in particular is where big salvos become life-threatening. You can weather one, maybe two, medium-ranged salvos if they're not too individually threatening (like an Assault Frigate or HMC80 front arc, for example). You can also handle a single strong attack provided your brace is safe (say for example, a Glad side arc only, once a double-arc happens you have problems).

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Contrast this to how well an ISD can handle any situation,

An ISD comes in at more than twice the cost of a Raider (in some cases, triple the cost) and it doesn't maneuver nearly as well at speeds 1 and 2, nor is its flak as powerful (especially for its cost). Every ISD offers at least some long ranged dice and they're all much more durable (although they don't avoid damage at long range as well). They're almost nothing alike (although they do like to work together in some builds as the Raiders can use flak to keep squadrons wary of going all-in on the ISD and they can guard the flanks against speedy nuisances that like to harass the ISD from afar).

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or a Gozanti with two or three ace fighter squadrons in the same situation

Again, this is points spent specifically for one goal (dealing with enemy squadrons) and you can only afford two aces while keeping the cost equivalent. It will succeed at the thing it wants to do (say you're running naked Gozanti (23) with Mauler (15) and Valen (13), which is exactly as many points as an External Racks Ordnance Experts Raider), but it's miserable against ships. Raiders can one-shot opposing corvettes in addition to providing flak support, depending on what you need it to do, but they aren't as good against squads (which is fair, specialists should beat support for the same cost). Raiders are also handy to work alongside Gozantis, because the Gozantis provide additional cheap activations, provide ancillary flak, and can command the fighters the Raiders want to team up with but not command themselves.

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or how robust the Demolisher is under the same circumstances.

Demolisher comes out to at least 50% more expensive, only has the one evade (so for its cost doesn't quite handle long-ranged attacks as well/consistently), is specialized against ships, and unless you're gearing it up as a side-job flak boat (Glad-II with Kallus, which for a bit more points sacrifices some anti-ship for decent to good flak, depending), it's not interested in or good at flakking. They don't do the same thing. Demolisher is a lot more aggressive and it can tank some attacks Raiders can't, but it's generally not good against squads (some exceptions) and it isn't happy playing reactively like Raiders are. Raiders also like hanging out with Demolisher due to this because they want to activate at different points in the turn and the Raiders provide support.

So I guess what I'm getting at is Raiders are superior in some ways to the options you mentioned and actually work well mixed in with them, as opposed to competing with them directly.

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I'm still thinking watching one of your games Snip can help me understand the best way to use this.

I'll be at the Indianapolis Regional in two days, so it's possible someone might catch me there? Sooner or later, @geek19 and I will do some battle reports, although likely not taped (photographed, I picked up the equipment for Christmas).

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I only clued in that this ship had value after I realized clon could go from out-of-range to close in one move, but I also feel having first player is essential in that kind of list.

That's definitely a trick in the Raider toolbox, but it's not the only trick. It's also a trick that competes for tempo with Demolisher, which makes the Raider appear to be directly competing with one of the more fundamental Imperial ships.

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Other options are more reliable, easier to use, and more forgiving. *shrug*

I dispute "reliable." Once you get a handle on them, Raiders are reliable (especially their attack dice with Ordnance Experts). They are notoriously tricky to get the hang of and unforgiving, however. Every now and then I still make a screw-up with a Raider and things go bad for the GIS Deadmeat.

To be fair, Raiders are cheap. And screw-ups in Armada are usually punished. It's just they're usually punished harder with Raiders.

I am loving all of this quality discussions going on.

I think for its cost, a double arced CF OE ER Raider has the highest damage per point in the game. Average of 10 damage for 51 points. Even just the front arc is ridiculous with 7 dice for 47 points. Kinda balanced when the ship is hard to use.

11 hours ago, Norsehound said:

In the end I don't think I'll be convinced until I see a game where Raiders are run well. Other options are more reliable, easier to use, and more forgiving. *shrug*

Let it be seen

I will add this about Raiders.

1 : cost, they are cheap activations, with large damage dealing potential.
2 : they are uber maneuerable at speed 1/2 in comparison to other imperial ships, they get a II & II which means you can take that Conc fire and not have to worry about Nav for extra clicks on a crunch round.
3 : they have superb Flak, no opposition player will fly a group of squadrons into Flak range of an unactivated Raider, unless they are totally confident of neutralizing it.

What does this mean in game terms? I have a question for you, Where do players want to be and not want to be when facing ISD/VSD ships? in your front arc, they will try their very hardest to deny you front arc shots, they do this by being in your side arcs or rear arcs. This is a key strength of the Raider, "Area Denial." to both squadrons and ships.

There Defense tokens are eminently suited sitting at the side/rear of your big ship, 2 evades....you want things shooting you at Long/Med range, you engineer this by being at long range, in a position they want to be in to escape your big ships primary arc, force them to engage you on your terms, where it is beneficial to you, most people will given a choice of moving into your ISD/VSD front arc or its side arc and possibly the arcs of a Raider, will foolishly take the Raider option, because they do not see it as being a real threat.

And if the Raider gets blown up the following round, it did its job, and depending on its load out it can deal an unholy amount of damage before it gets destroyed, a Raider I with OE and ACM costs 55 points and is my favorite load out for Raiders flanking an ISD.

I have a different take on some of the ships, however I also play different than just about every other Empire player that I have seen. It is very very rare for me to go speed two, and you can count on one hand the number of times that I have gone faster.

ISD - 5/5 A good all round ship (looks to be made even better with new options coming out). Has nice amount of red dice (best in the game), good shields, AA, and hull. For me maneuverability is not much of a issue (do to moving slow).

VSD - 4/5 Also a good all round ship (looking forward to seventh fleet title) Biggest drawback is the lack of AA.

GSD - 3/5 This is probably the ship that takes the biggest hit with my always moving slow, I rarely use titles, when I use the GSD it is normally for AA support, with a bit more firepower than the Raider.

Raider - 4/5 I love this little guy, but I use it as mobile AA support/picket ship.

Arquitens - 3/5 Not a bad ship, and likely I would rate it higher if I used it more. Nice amount of red dice out the wide side arcs, just takes some work to use well and I have not put the time into using it to get the most out of it I think yet.

Quasar 4/5 A great way to push squadrons and as you move forward a couple of extra red dice against ships, and/or one to pick at squadrons at long range.

Interdictor 0/5 (Can I go lower?) It has so much potential but fails on almost everything, mostly by just being so expensive for what you get.

Gozanti - 1/5 Good for extra activation's, but at least in my area the Rebel players all play small units so they will still out activate you, so I think it is better to go with more capable ships that can stand up to some damage (also does not help that I have never been able to use the scatter, not even once).

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I agree. Not to be rude, but I feel like I have this conversation with you about once every two or three months and each time we have it you use the same arguments, which makes me feel like whatever I've said previously amounted to not much; this is frustrating when I type out big long posts (...like I'm doing again).

No, I realize it too. We have a thread discussing the strengths/weaknesses of Imperial craft started by someone else, I chime in as an Imperial player and my opinion hasn't changed because the ship continues to be poor on the table in my estimation. You respond to my wide assertions based on my experience, and here we are again.

The 225 patrol format will do wonders of getting ships to the table to try them in far less time than a standard 400. I'll be considering some Raider combinations for my next outing to test some presumptions I have about this vessel.

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

It's honestly more of an External Racks ship. It doesn't get enough black dice (sans Screed) to consistently trigger APTs. The External Racks are cheaper, they're flexible on which arc they're useful on, and they can be used while flakking (one-shotting a clutch 4 or 5-hull squad on occasion can be glorious, and hitting a brace ace that felt safe at 3 hull is also fun).

I've seen firsthand massed APTs with ordnance experts (on five pre-Rieekan nerf MC30s) demolish rebel craft because rebels can't tank the hull that Empire can, so I still think swarming APTs have their place and under screed, you can guarantee APT delivery with massed raiders. That all said, I agree E-Racks is the better general option because you're cheaply adding black dice to combo with the ordnance experts you're already stapling to the ship. Still, assuming you can get your raiders not to die as badly as I feel they do, massed APT hits out of double arcs with Screed sounds like a very good idea.

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

Nobody who has spoken in support of the Raider has specified any of those conditions. In response to the points themselves:

1. @PT106 and I specifically stressed that first activation is not required at all. Raiders are happy to lie in waiting. First activation opens up more options, but it's not a requirement.
2. It's rare that I go for "human wave"-style attacks with Raiders where I'm trying to overload something with them. That's the kind of tactic you use when you're running right into the nastiest arc of whatever you're trying to kill, and it's the sort of thing I'd only consider if/when the target is nearly dead and that's the only way to ensure I get it to "actually dead." In that case, I'm trading up by sacrificing a Raider to destroy a pricier ship. Normally Raiders should be maneuvering into the worst arcs of whatever they're going after and/or staying at longer ranges of the nastier arcs and "catching" ships that move into them.
3. Why are you putting the Raider in range of multiple attackers up to medium range? It's extremely maneuverable (especially at speed 2) and shouldn't be there. It can handle a few attacks at long range, especially if you're good at angling it so all the shots can't go to the same hull zone, but otherwise it's not designed to handle that for the same reason other cheap corvettes aren't designed to handle that. Medium range in particular is where big salvos become life-threatening. You can weather one, maybe two, medium-ranged salvos if they're not too individually threatening (like an Assault Frigate or HMC80 front arc, for example). You can also handle a single strong attack provided your brace is safe (say for example, a Glad side arc only, once a double-arc happens you have problems).

Nobody has, that is my assessment of the vessel and its shortcomings.

1. Right, ambushing at speed 2 is a way to play this ship as a counterpart to first-last. This requires, in my view, good spatial awareness to expect where the opponent is going to land so it is in the "ambush zone" for your Raiders to catch. Say the target goes from speed 2 to speed 1 though, ending up short? If both of you are going at speed 1 I don't think the Raiders will have a chance to fire before the opponent does, unless the Raiders can go first and attack from their new position.

2. If you're going aggressive with Raiders this is the play I see. Otherwise, I suppose aggressively flanking on a speed 1 target can work. The issue is when the target speeds up and when it moves, your activation stands when the target has moved into medium range. I'm aware I may not have the experience in spatial distance to confirm this, but that's what I forsee: chasing raiders unable to deliver black dice on fleeing targets.

3. I believe if I put my raiders in a flanking position they'll end up out of timing with the rest of my fleet, either chasing faster ships fleeing battle or getting engaged after my main line is engaged.

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

An ISD comes in at more than twice the cost of a Raider (in some cases, triple the cost) and it doesn't maneuver nearly as well at speeds 1 and 2, nor is its flak as powerful (especially for its cost). Every ISD offers at least some long ranged dice and they're all much more durable (although they don't avoid damage at long range as well). They're almost nothing alike (although they do like to work together in some builds as the Raiders can use flak to keep squadrons wary of going all-in on the ISD and they can guard the flanks against speedy nuisances that like to harass the ISD from afar).

ISDs have more options defending at varying ranges with redirects and an defensive retrofit slot. They have the option of stopping special criticals. They can successfully employ a fighter wing to engage enemy fighters to engage scatter aces better or attack capital ships- sometimes both. The ISD can play defensively at range (Cymoon) or engage at close (ISD-I, ISD-K). The ISD does not need a specific playstyle or understanding in order to use well.

They aren't anything alike. The ISD is much friendlier and flexible than the Raider is. That was my point.

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I'll be at the Indianapolis Regional in two days, so it's possible someone might catch me there? Sooner or later, @geek19 and I will do some battle reports, although likely not taped (photographed, I picked up the equipment for Christmas).

I live in the SF Bay area without the income to travel. If I ever leave the region to go to a larger event, it's going to be an undertaking. I'm just lucky the SF bay area community is thriving enough that there are a lot of players nearby.

16 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I dispute "reliable." Once you get a handle on them, Raiders are reliable (especially their attack dice with Ordnance Experts). They are notoriously tricky to get the hang of and unforgiving, however. Every now and then I still make a screw-up with a Raider and things go bad for the GIS Deadmeat.

To be fair, Raiders are cheap. And screw-ups in Armada are usually punished. It's just they're usually punished harder with Raiders.

The reason I've settled on ARQs as my go-to craft for imperial listbuilding recently is because they are also cheap, I can inflate their firepower to large amounts of lethal levels, and I have the margin of safety for distance that Raiders or much of the rest of the Imperial lineup, can't guarantee. For other ships, even VSDs, I have some assurances in the depth of their hull that they won't die really quickly. I feel safe fielding these things. All I see are too many on-paper liabilities of the Raiders to really trust them, and my personal experience has bore this out. I guess to be fair to the community I should fly them again before I, uh "critique" them (as it's been a while), but it's going to take me seeing them in person before I can believe in their power.

I tend to find Raiders and up being just a bit too punishing for mistakes with them. Perhaps it's just our meta that was super strong OP Avenger back in the day, but no one treats them as non threats. So if an opportunity arises to shoot one, they tend to get shot at.

The big issue is one that's been mentioned, but it's that they fill the same tempo space as Demolisher and a lot of ISD builds. They want very late or very early activations, and so do other mainstay Imperial ships. Secondary to that is the defense token suite is ill suited to anti squadron duties. Brace will take down a crit hit, but in way too many situations does nothing as those 4 bomber attacks open a hull zone and putting a couple damage cards on.

They're one of my favorite ships visually, but I tend to find them just not fitting into lists very well any more.