5 minutes ago, RobertK said:

I know this is the Rules Sub-forum, but...

Rather than competing, don't Slicer Tools and the Raid mechanic synergize?

Rapid launch bays?

That's kind of my point. Raid, Slicer Tools, Tractor Beams, Ion Cannon Batteries, all serve to strip command tokens in one way or another. Individually, they each have a rather weak effect on the opponent's command economy, because tokens are relatively plentiful and easy to obtain when needed to counter any of these threats. But countering multiple token sinks at the same time... well, that gets much harder.

This is not to say the synergy is necessarily cost-efficient. But if the combined threat provides an incentive to occasionally bring Tarkin or Garm to the table, that's a win for Armada.

Yes, the investment and activation timing required to pull off even a semi effective token/dial denial tactic is so large that it often cripples the rest of the fleet.

You run the risk of being so specialized that most generic lists out gun you very badly.

It still might be fun to fly. Even if you win against it, it's going to be the most frustrating win ever.

Take everything you can that is used to disrupt commands and tokens, a full compliment of raid capable fighters, and just annoy the heck out of your opponent.

You say comms net can circumvent this easily.

What if your putting the Raid tokens on the flotillas with comms net? Flotillas can only store 1 command token, now your forcing them to discard them to be able resolve command dials, or discard the dial so no token next round.

I think people were expecting too much from this addition to the game, FFG should at all costs avoid adding anything to the game that is must take for everyone, and they have done so, it has its uses and it has its counters, just like everything is supposed to.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

You say comms net can circumvent this easily.

What if your putting the Raid tokens on the flotillas with comms net? Flotillas can only store 1 command token, now your forcing them to discard them to be able resolve command dials, or discard the dial so no token next round.

I think people were expecting too much from this addition to the game, FFG should at all costs avoid adding anything to the game that is must take for everyone, and they have done so, it has its uses and it has its counters, just like everything is supposed to.

Not sure I follow.

The flotilla can still convert dials and pass on tokens.

The last thing you want your Comms flotillas doing is resolving commands.

I thought you had to have the token before you resolve the dial on comms net?

If so then you place the raid token on the flotilla, it now has a choice of using its banked token to remove the raid token, or the dial, if it uses the token, it cannot send a command token, if it uses the dial, it has no command token the following round as it spent its dial removing the raid token.

if I'm incorrect on my understanding of the mechanics of comms net, not quite so disruptive as I imagined.

Comma net..

start activation (discard token to clear raid IF the same)

reveal dial

discard dial to get token

commas net token to another ship

shoot

move

10 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I thought you had to have the token before you resolve the dial on comms net?

If so then you place the raid token on the flotilla, it now has a choice of using its banked token to remove the raid token, or the dial, if it uses the token, it cannot send a command token, if it uses the dial, it has no command token the following round as it spent its dial removing the raid token.

if I'm incorrect on my understanding of the mechanics of comms net, not quite so disruptive as I imagined.

Raid Tokens on Comms Net Flotillas basically do nothing.

The Flotilla never resolves it’s own commands - that’s the point of it... Duscarding tokens or dials to kill Raid tokens is elective, not mandatory... so it can just cruise about collecting them for all it cares.

But the raid tokens certainly have an effect on other ships who want it neeed those commands - even if it’s simply forcing a Comms net activation first to clear it...

Ah I see, my error was thinking you reveal dial, and then resolve it by either using the dial or taking a token, either way you are resolving the dial to do 1 of 2 things.

But as you can use a banked token to discard the raid token, then gain a token and use the CN it makes that moot.

Just now, TheEasternKing said:

Ah I see, my error was thinking you reveal dial, and then resolve it by either using the dial or taking a token, either way you are resolving the dial to do 1 of 2 things.

You got it now.

Technicslly, you don’t resolve dials - you resolve commands. You resolve commands by spending dials, tokens, or combinations thereof.

The raid tokens stops you from resolving the matching command - it certainly doesn’t stop you from spending dials and tokens on things that are not commands.

Thats the strength of the comms net. If it’s resolving a command, you’re probably already hard up and desperate...

if I've got it right raid doesn't even stop spending a token to activate a fleet command :/

1 minute ago, slasher956 said:

if I've got it right raid doesn't even stop spending a token to activate a fleet command :/

Nope. Nor to prevent BT from triggering, which was what I was most interested in myself.

Does make it of rather questionable benefit, though if your opponent has no way of shunting tokens around it could cause some problems.

No real way to tell now until we see them in use.

4 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Does make it of rather questionable benefit, though if your opponent has no way of shunting tokens around it could cause some problems.

No real way to tell now until we see them in use.

Prediction: raid is a minor inconvenience.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Prediction: raid is a minor inconvenience.

In my test so far, it ranged from a minor inconvenience to a crippling debt.

But I acknowledge that I tend to be all-in on board and decision control... so I overloaded my opponents ability to soft counter and started that pressure almost immediately.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

Prediction: raid is a minor inconvenience.

Shame... but theamatic... I mean a raid into a sealed environment the size of a small ship isn't going to do that much....

i mean youd get 30 troops in a gauntlet

...if you add in slicer tools, ion batteries etc, and do not run into Tarkin or Garm...then it's a good addition to the control toolbox.

1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

...if you add in slicer tools, ion batteries etc, and do not run into Tarkin or Garm...then it's a good addition to the control toolbox.

Please, you know me...

I’m not just using what’s in the toolbox...

... Nose Punch is basically a Toolbox Cannon ?

So yvaris with 2 tokens, one squad, one anything else, and ahsoka nearby. Ditch squad token to kill raid, ahsoka other token to squad...back online. Given that ahsoka is 2 points, highly useful and synergistic, raid didn't really appear to hinder yvaris lists at all...

3 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

So yvaris with 2 tokens, one squad, one anything else, and ahsoka nearby. Ditch squad token to kill raid, ahsoka other token to squad...back online. Given that ahsoka is 2 points, highly useful and synergistic, raid didn't really appear to hinder yvaris lists at all...

Yup, this is my plan to deal with it in my own lists.

Still an impact, though: losing that nav token ties Yav to a pretty narrow course that pretty well dooms it to die; you can only do this for one round without Comms Net (or if your CN platform is destroyed/separated from Yav ); you have to activate Yav before Comms Net. So, a lot of the same considerations as Slicers, really.

Lots of yeah-but s get involved too, of course, from both sides.

Hondo gets around that timing issue, but you're usually tight on officer slots anyway.
A pair of Comms Nets bakes in resilience, but you're also not pushing tokens over to anything else in the list while this is happening.
On the other hand, your Yav is facing a list that spent 20-40 of its squadron points on Rogue s to do this.
Yav usually really only needs the one round to decide the game.
Slicer Tools on the other side may magnify the effectiveness of Raid.

And yes, I'm ignoring Jyn because I don't like her so can't really Devil's Advocate for her effectiveness.

7 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yup, this is my plan to deal with it in my own lists.

Still an impact, though: losing that nav token ties Yav to a pretty narrow course that pretty well dooms it to die; you can only do this for one round without Comms Net (or if your CN platform is destroyed/separated from Yav ); you have to activate Yav before Comms Net. So, a lot of the same considerations as Slicers, really.

Lots of yeah-but s get involved too, of course, from both sides.

Hondo gets around that timing issue, but you're usually tight on officer slots anyway.
A pair of Comms Nets bakes in resilience, but you're also not pushing tokens over to anything else in the list while this is happening.
On the other hand, your Yav is facing a list that spent 20-40 of its squadron points on Rogue s to do this.
Yav usually really only needs the one round to decide the game.
Slicer Tools on the other side may magnify the effectiveness of Raid.

And yes, I'm ignoring Jyn because I don't like her so can't really Devil's Advocate for her effectiveness.

here's a yeah but... if we're bombing yavaris and we have the intel to do it, why not just kill the thing... 4-6 separate attacks to the side arc with or without a long range ship shot, not that hard to do. at least not as hard as raiding with mandalorian fighters and having that work out for us.

3 hours ago, SkyCake said:

here's a yeah but... if we're bombing yavaris and we have the intel to do it, why not just kill the thing... 4-6 separate attacks to the side arc with or without a long range ship shot, not that hard to do. at least not as hard as raiding with mandalorian fighters and having that work out for us.

You have faced my nose Punch.

imagine how much worse it is when your already stretched commands are being limited further... ?

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

You have faced my nose Punch.

imagine how much worse it is when your already stretched commands are being limited further... ?

Agreed. And i think people are missing the forest for the trees... It doesn't cost much to add in gar to your bombing fleet, and he'll hold his own as a fighter, but occasionally cause table flips and that's fine... Obviously if gauntlets were so good, people would feel forced to buy the most expensive expansion in the game to get them, which would not be good for the game... I think if people just lower expectations for these, they'll find them quite enjoyable

Gar Saxon with two slicers is no real addition to a fleet. 7 pts on top of the flotillas you were taking anyway, and the opportunity for comms net. Lets be honest here you all have a dirty attachment to comms net, just git gud..... Gar is an absolute animal against intel and relay which are annoying sons of b at the best of times, so not really a big cost to take.

Now the tractors, Ion Cannon Batteries and Konstantine... yeah those are heavy costs.