I'd like to get some of the communities thoughts on letting players outright purchase force rating, rather than strictly from the talents. With out taking multiple specializations the most you can get is FR3. Which sucks if you don't want to take multiple specializations, like a few of my players.

I'm thinking of allowing my group to just by force rating with Xp, but with some restrictions:

First, you must have bought ALL of the talents in your base specialization.

Second, if you have any additional specializations, you must buy any Force Rating talents in those trees

The additional force rating would cost 100+(10*the next rating)

I Generally give out 25-50xp depending on what was accomplished in the session so it would still take 2-4 sessions to increase the FR.

thoughts?

For the cost the can get a new tree and pretty close to a force rating with that much exp, and gain better talents.

Is this for characters not wanting to pick up new specializations since it doesnt fit the look of their character?

Yes, they want a specific build and don't want to just keep buying new specializations

So I'm guessing a fair portion of your PCs started out with one of the Lightsaber Form specs and are now lamenting they have to buy additional specs in order to boost up their Force Rating?

I am curious what sort of build this player has for their character that it can't benefit from additional specializations. That is unless they've got a fairly narrow/dogmatic view of what this character should be.

Looking at the propose cost, if I'm figuring this right going from Force Rating 1 to Force Rating 2 would cost 120XP? With some rare exceptions, that less expensive than buying another in-career specialization, though you're not getting the additional talents, which is a mitigating factor.

I'm not in favor of such a "free ride" increase, but of the various options to boost Force Rating without buying the Force Rating talent, especially with all the other restrictions you've put in place, this isn't a horrible suggestion.

Of the four players three of them started out with lightsaber specializations. Everyone at this point has at least two different specializations, but there's just a couple players that don't want to have to add additional specializations just to get the force rating

That's almost understandable, but at this rate, they're throwing away so much xp that why wouldn't they just by a new specialization? There's almost certainly another one that fits their character. Heck, I can't seem to imagine a character who doesn't fall into at least four specializations!

Let's take a look at some numbers, shall we? Let's say the character in question has three specializations (lightsaber, general, general), and has near maxed then out. They'd have a Force rating of 3, meaning they'd need to spend 140 xp to get their FR 4 with this method.

The most expensive Force rating boost in a non-lightsaber specialization so far published is the one in the Peacekeeper, which requires 125 xp to get to along the straightest (and yet still quite windy) path. With the cost for buying a new tree, plus the out-of-career penalty, that total is 175 xp, 30 more than otherwise. However, for that cost, you get a real in Command and Commanding Presence, Improved Field Commander, easy access to the unique Unity Assault talent, and basically all the goodies the Peacekeeper has available.

Why pass that up? Improved Field Commander by itself is amazing, and combined with Command you can give the entire party a Boost on all Discipline checks all day every day!

And again, that's the single most expensive Force rating other than the one in Niman, a lightsaber tree. Most are simply a straight drop down the column at 75 xp, meaning even out-of-career you're still saving 25 xp and getting access to a bunch of cool talents in the mix, and possibly more career skills, too!

Now of course, you should do you; as long as the entire party is Force-sensitive, altering the Force rating rules won't mess with party balance. And as Donovan said, this is the first time in the dozens of instances where this subject has been brought up that the solution offered doesn't over-power the characters who use it. It just...underpowers them instead.

So if you like the idea, I don't think it'll wreck your game, simply because your party will be weaker then their xp total suggests.

I had a similar question when I first started running this system:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/249757-force-rating-increases/

5 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

That's almost understandable, but at this rate, they're throwing away so much xp that why wouldn't they just by a new specialization? There's almost certainly another one that fits their character. Heck, I can't seem to imagine a character who doesn't fall into at least four specializations!

Let's take a look at some numbers, shall we? Let's say the character in question has three specializations (lightsaber, general, general), and has near maxed then out. They'd have a Force rating of 3, meaning they'd need to spend 140 xp to get their FR 4 with this method.

The most expensive Force rating boost in a non-lightsaber specialization so far published is the one in the Peacekeeper, which requires 125 xp to get to along the straightest (and yet still quite windy) path. With the cost for buying a new tree, plus the out-of-career penalty, that total is 175 xp, 30 more than otherwise. However, for that cost, you get a real in Command and Commanding Presence, Improved Field Commander, easy access to the unique Unity Assault talent, and basically all the goodies the Peacekeeper has available.

Why pass that up? Improved Field Commander by itself is amazing, and combined with Command you can give the entire party a Boost on all Discipline checks all day every day!

And again, that's the single most expensive Force rating other than the one in Niman, a lightsaber tree. Most are simply a straight drop down the column at 75 xp, meaning even out-of-career you're still saving 25 xp and getting access to a bunch of cool talents in the mix, and possibly more career skills, too!

Now of course, you should do you; as long as the entire party is Force-sensitive, altering the Force rating rules won't mess with party balance. And as Donovan said, this is the first time in the dozens of instances where this subject has been brought up that the solution offered doesn't over-power the characters who use it. It just...underpowers them instead.

So if you like the idea, I don't think it'll wreck your game, simply because your party will be weaker then their xp total suggests.

I understand what your saying. And I feel the same way for the most part. The issue really revolves around player feeling like some specializations don't match their characters and I don't want to restrict their growth because they want to have a particular focus

How specialized are these character concepts? I'm struggling to find a reason why additional specializations wouldn't fit...

Especially if they're ex-Jedi (or even current Jedi!), just about anything from the Consular or Guardian careers should mesh very well.

I mean...like we've said, of all the proposed ways to allow purchasing Force rating without the talent, yours is the only one that doesn't destroy the fine-tuned balance of the game, so if it's what the players want then you should feel free to do it without concern, but...I just don't get it, it seems . Like I said, I'm always struggling to narrow my characters down to just one or two specializations at character creation, and they often don't feel fully fleshed out until they get four or even five!

Once I get past five, I start to struggle to find sensible new specs to add, but...never mind. Different folks, etc.

While it doesn't make sense to me personally, I can see it from a bookkeeping standpoint. I have some players rocking three specs and multiple Force powers and are sailing clear. Some have only one or two specs and are feeling a little overwhelmed by their Talent choices.

Maybe tack a FR+1 to the bottom of Force power trees? ~40XP Talent, but can only be purchased after you're heavily invested in Force powers?

54 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

I understand what your saying. And I feel the same way for the most part. The issue really revolves around player feeling like some specializations don't match their characters and I don't want to restrict their growth because they want to have a particular focus

There are like 30 Force and Destiny specs published at this point.....how in the heck can they not find one that "fits their character" ?!? Is the ONLY thing they want to know how to do is twirl a glowstick of death? I mean, the specs are by design, built to fit some of the most common tropes in gaming culture, and star wars franchise. I find it VERY suspect that they don't want to buy another spec because "it doesn't fit their design", and more likely just under the misconception that spending the xp on other trees is somehow a waste.

Seriously, wtf?

16 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

There are like 30 Force and Destiny specs published at this point.....how in the heck can they not find one that "fits their character" ?!? Is the ONLY thing they want to know how to do is twirl a glowstick of death? I mean, the specs are by design, built to fit some of the most common tropes in gaming culture, and star wars franchise. I find it VERY suspect that they don't want to buy another spec because "it doesn't fit their design", and more likely just under the misconception that spending the xp on other trees is somehow a waste.

Seriously, wtf?

Either contribute in a positive manner of don't say anything.

I've already said most of them have 2-3 specializations and don't want to keep buying other ones.

also, we only use the core book, because I can't afford to buy the rest.

Ah, that might make a bit more sense. Sorry I didn't consider you might be limited to the Core book; I've been so involved here that I've forgotten that it's a possibility!

While I'd recommend you try to pick a couple of the career books up, as they are really, REALLY cool (especially the upcoming MYSTIC BOOK!!!1!!11!), I can see how that limitation might stretch the limits of what specializations fit a character's theme.

What I might do is have the characters buy a "blank" specialization, then spend an extra 100 XP to get a Force Rating upgrade. Then, if/when you get a career book with a specialization that fits, it gets swapped in. It's the best of both worlds, in a way: the price remains mostly the same, and if a new book comes along that has something they want, they get the benefits right away!

5 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Ah, that might make a bit more sense. Sorry I didn't consider you might be limited to the Core book; I've been so involved here that I've forgotten that it's a possibility!

While I'd recommend you try to pick a couple of the career books up, as they are really, REALLY cool (especially the upcoming MYSTIC BOOK!!!1!!11!), I can see how that limitation might stretch the limits of what specializations fit a character's theme.

What I might do is have the characters buy a "blank" specialization, then spend an extra 100 XP to get a Force Rating upgrade. Then, if/when you get a career book with a specialization that fits, it gets swapped in. It's the best of both worlds, in a way: the price remains mostly the same, and if a new book comes along that has something they want, they get the benefits right away!

that is a good idea, I've considered having the group share the cost of the new books, but the issue is who gets them if we stop playing

Really don't understand the point of a massive xp tax. If everyone wants/intends to use this option, and if they all agree they want a higher FR without "playing the game", why waste the time to earn xp to throw it away?

Just allow them to bump FR with Defication (har, leaving that typo in cuz it's too good) give them a Relic that bumps their FR, set them on a powerful Force Nexus planet that boosts FR, give them a holocron that teaches them how to become stronger Int the Force/raises their FR, heck just give them a bonus FR.

Why waste time with an xp tax?

If self gratification is everyone's thing, it's a game, you can make the rules, just give them the gratification. Don't waste time over it.

11 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Really don't understand the point of a massive xp tax. If everyone wants/intends to use this option, and if they all agree they want a higher FR without "playing the game", why waste the time to earn xp to throw it away?

Just allow them to bump FR with Defication (har, leaving that typo in cuz it's too good) give them a Relic that bumps their FR, set them on a powerful Force Nexus planet that boosts FR, give them a holocron that teaches them how to become stronger Int the Force/raises their FR, heck just give them a bonus FR.

Why waste time with an xp tax?

If self gratification is everyone's thing, it's a game, you can make the rules, just give them the gratification. Don't waste time over it.

It's not everyone, if it was I'd Do that, I gave them an initial +1 already. But I see what you're saying.

There are lots of trees that will allow them to get extra FR for much cheaper, plus some extra talents. That means the rule you're suggesting isn't unbalanced, but your PCs are shooting themselves in the foot if they go with the house rule rather than just taking a tree where it's cheap to rush FR, like Protector, Warden, Navigator, Seer, Sage...

On the issue of whether these specs fit their character concepts, Navigator spec doesn't mean you're a navigator. It's just a name. What matters about the spec is the talents and class skills it grants. And I can't imagine a character who can't find a FaD spec with stats that fit into their concept.

If you don't have the expansion books, the talent trees can be found here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oy5c8dh3a30n0n6/Spec FnD TC.pdf?dl=0

This is another part of the reason that when I ran a larger game, I decided when FR went up rather than deal with trees.

If you want to make FR avaible outside of specialisation I suggest new force rating times 50.
And I would handle characteristics in that case the same. Increasing those is as well the new value times 50.

7 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

If you want to make FR avaible outside of specialisation I suggest new force rating times 50.
And I would handle characteristics in that case the same. Increasing those is as well the new value times 50.

doing it that way would make it way to difficult to increase, the minimum a player would pay right now is 200 based off that. We only meet like 3 Times a month so it would take almost two months if I was being super generous

1 hour ago, dgamal01 said:

doing it that way would make it easy to difficult to increase, the minimum a player would pay right now is 200 based off that. We only meet like 3 Tina's a month so it would take almost two months is I was being super generous

And...?

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

And...?

apparently I had a stroke while I posted that comment. I edited it to be actual coherent sentences.

I get what you're saying, but I personally think that option is too expensive. Especially when trying To get to higher levels.

13 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

apparently I had a stroke while I posted that comment. I edited it to be actual coherent sentences.

I get what you're saying, but I personally think that option is too expensive. Especially when trying To get to higher levels.

“Higher levels” come at a cost.

The real world equivalent comes at a cost of time, effort, and practice.

In an RPG, that translates as XP. From where I sit as both GM and player, a house rule allowing bypass of the system in place to advance Force rating while not leaving non-FS characters in the dust requires a mighty trade-off.

11 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

“Higher levels” come at a cost.

The real world equivalent comes at a cost of time, effort, and practice.

In an RPG, that translates as XP. From where I sit as both GM and player, a house rule allowing bypass of the system in place to advance Force rating while not leaving non-FS characters in the dust requires a mighty trade-off.

that makes sense for a mixed party. But you also need to consider that the actual gains of adding force dice are marginal after a certain point. There's another forum post were Absol197 calculated the probability based on the number of dice.

also, this system, as people have pointed out, is already more costly (with less reward) than the books system

in my situation in particular though, everyone in the group is a force user (25 years after ROTJ as part of the new Jedi)

9 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

that makes sense for a mixed party. But you also need to consider that the actual gains of adding force dice are marginal after a certain point. There's another forum post were Absol197 calculated the probability based on the number of dice.

also, this system, as people have pointed out, is already more costly (with less reward) than the books system

in my situation in particular though, everyone in the group is a force user (25 years after ROTJ as part of the new Jedi)

Which goes back to my original question:

And...?

If it works for your group, great. But, as a somewhat overly generous GM myself, I try to stop myself short of basically handing the players such a degree of advancement for little or no effort (in terms of gameplay or narrative).