3 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Which goes back to my original question:

And...?

If it works for your group, great. But, as a somewhat overly generous GM myself, I try to stop myself short of basically handing the players such a degree of advancement for little or no effort (in terms of gameplay or narrative).

how is 3-5 sessions of 5 hours each little or no effort? In the last 6 months they've essentiallly completed the knights of the old republic main quest... I thinks that's more that earned one or two extra force Rating. I don't Understand how buying a needless specialization That Won't be used by that player, just to get the force rating some how constitutes more "effort"

From my reading of this thread it seems like everyone already started this campaign with a Force Rating of 2 and now have 2-3 Specializations already. So what are their current Force Ratings? Once you get to a FR of 3 you're pretty much guaranteed to get enough pips to activate almost any Power with upgrades. You may have to flip to get a Dark Side pip occasionally but thats not really that bad. In any case a FR of 4 and you can almost never have to use a DS pip unless you roll especially bad.

I guess my question really is why bother with EXP at all? I'm not giving you a hard time I'm just thinking that maybe you should come up with a total EXP number that matches the power level you and your players want to adventure at, let them buy whatever fits their desired character and just play without bothering with Skill/Talent/Force Power growth at all any more. Theres nothing forcing you to follow the normal RPG advancement model and nothing wrong with having a character that is already at their peak and play it over the course of a campaign.

19 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

how is 3-5 sessions of 5 hours each little or no effort? In the last 6 months they've essentiallly completed the knights of the old republic main quest... I thinks that's more that earned one or two extra force Rating. I don't Understand how buying a needless specialization That Won't be used by that player, just to get the force rating some how constitutes more "effort"

In terms of reaching a high Force rating? Yes, I’d say that’s not much effort. I’ve got a couple of FS characters that I play. They’re both at a Force rating of 2. One with 16 sessions of 4-6 hours each behind him (although he got that second point several sessions prior to 16), and the other with 24 (although, again, he got that second point a while back). If the players won’t use parts of another spec that they buy, that’s on them. Across five different campaigns, I’ve got talents that I rarely use, either because situations don’t call for them, I just choose not to, or I forget about them.

That path simulates the in-game evolution of the character, which is how it constitutes more effort. Maybe it’s just a difference in priorities, but my players seem to be more about the journey and what their characters go through than wanting to fast forward to a high Force rating.

11 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

In terms of reaching a high Force rating? Yes, I’d say that’s not much effort. I’ve got a couple of FS characters that I play. They’re both at a Force rating of 2. One with 16 sessions of 4-6 hours each behind him (although he got that second point several sessions prior to 16), and the other with 24 (although, again, he got that second point a while back). If the players won’t use parts of another spec that they buy, that’s on them. Across five different campaigns, I’ve got talents that I rarely use, either because situations don’t call for them, I just choose not to, or I forget about them.

That path simulates the in-game evolution of the character, which is how it constitutes more effort. Maybe it’s just a difference in priorities, but my players seem to be more about the journey and what their characters go through than wanting to fast forward to a high Force rating.

This campaign has gone for almost 2 years, playing 2-4 times per month so like 50-70 sessions, that is hardly "fast forwarding to higher Force ratings"

This is more along the lines of end game characters wanting to further progression without adding unnecessary fluff and clutter to their character sheets.

It seems strange to me to suggest that the proposed house rule is "fast forwarding to FR" when it provides a slower path to FR than many actual talent trees do.

These characters could just take Navigator and get a new point of FR for under 100 XP. It's not as if the house rule would be offering them something overpowered.

Have you considered maybe making it a quest rather than an XP spend? You say they'd earn that much XP in 2-4 sessions anyway, so why not spend those 2-4 sessions exploring a lost temple, searching for a powerful artefact, or doing something worth of light side paragon action (personal sacrifice/hardship/journey for betterment of downtrodden). In that way, they "earn" increased abilities with the force in a natural way as a reward, rather than just a purchase. It accomplishes the same end goal of increasing everyone's force rating at once, but it becomes a plot point, and arguably more satisfying as it's something they worked together for.

You could even have a part of the final act actually require them to make force checks together for a single big purpose (like using a combination of Move and Bind to keep a failing bridge up for escaping innocents, the act of which gains them a closer relationship with the force through their teamwork. Maybe one of them has neither power, but can use Protect or Heal to support the effort of the team/innocents). Once that check comes it can be the trigger for your sudden burst of extra force power, and you can award them all the extra rating to use immediately.

Speaking as a player, I'd always appreciate the opportunity to earn something like that rather than just bypass purchasing a tree. It gives more of an ownership of the ability boost in my mind, over just grinding XP to purchase a rating. But that's just my two cent.

7 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Have you considered maybe making it a quest rather than an XP spend? You say they'd earn that much XP in 2-4 sessions anyway, so why not spend those 2-4 sessions exploring a lost temple, searching for a powerful artefact, or doing something worth of light side paragon action (personal sacrifice/hardship/journey for betterment of downtrodden). In that way, they "earn" increased abilities with the force in a natural way as a reward, rather than just a purchase. It accomplishes the same end goal of increasing everyone's force rating at once, but it becomes a plot point, and arguably more satisfying as it's something they worked together for.

You could even have a part of the final act actually require them to make force checks together for a single big purpose (like using a combination of Move and Bind to keep a failing bridge up for escaping innocents, the act of which gains them a closer relationship with the force through their teamwork. Maybe one of them has neither power, but can use Protect or Heal to support the effort of the team/innocents). Once that check comes it can be the trigger for your sudden burst of extra force power, and you can award them all the extra rating to use immediately.

Speaking as a player, I'd always appreciate the opportunity to earn something like that rather than just bypass purchasing a tree. It gives more of an ownership of the ability boost in my mind, over just grinding XP to purchase a rating. But that's just my two cent.

I like that Idea too, that was how they got the initial +1 I mentioned. Plus they would be able To spend the xp on skills and powers. The only downfall, which isn't a big one, is that it's dependant on the situations I put them into rather than their own choice.

58 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

This campaign has gone for almost 2 years, playing 2-4 times per month so like 50-70 sessions, that is hardly "fast forwarding to higher Force ratings"

That wasn’t apparent to me when you said “ 3-5 sessions of 5 hours each.” Apologies if I misunderstood.

1 hour ago, dgamal01 said:

This is more along the lines of end game characters wanting to further progression without adding unnecessary fluff and clutter to their character sheets.

As I said, if it works for your group, great. I personally wouldn’t do it, though, on either side of the screen.

27 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

It seems strange to me to suggest that the proposed house rule is "fast forwarding to FR" when it provides a slower path to FR than many actual talent trees do.

These characters could just take Navigator and get a new point of FR for under 100 XP. It's not as if the house rule would be offering them something overpowered.

Part of it comes from the misunderstanding of the timeframe involved, mentioned in my most recent post.

33 minutes ago, dgamal01 said:

I like that Idea too, that was how they got the initial +1 I mentioned. Plus they would be able To spend the xp on skills and powers. The only downfall, which isn't a big one, is that it's dependant on the situations I put them into rather than their own choice.

Well they could still choose to if it was set up as a guided conclusion. Using that bridge example, if it was the only way in/out of the area and you had a force sensitive NPC initiate the Move/Bind, then they can choose to join or not. They may still find a creative way around it, but there's always ways to gently lead rather than push toward. May take some planning, but it could prove fun.

5 hours ago, DaverWattra said:

These characters could just take Navigator and get a new point of FR for under 100 XP. It's not as if the house rule would be offering them something overpowered.

From what the OP said earlier in the thread, sounds like his group only has access to the F&D core rulebook, and as such don't have access to any of the specializations introduced in the supplementary books.

Speaking as someone that's bought every book that FFG has produced for their Star Wars line, it can be easy to forget that not everyone has access to those extra options and thus don't have as big a toolbox to pull from.

59 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

From what the OP said earlier in the thread, sounds like his group only has access to the F&D core rulebook, and as such don't have access to any of the specializations introduced in the supplementary books.

Speaking as someone that's bought every book that FFG has produced for their Star Wars line, it can be easy to forget that not everyone has access to those extra options and thus don't have as big a toolbox to pull from.

The OP was, however, pointed to where he might find those specs outside of the books (by Daver, for that matter).

56 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

From what the OP said earlier in the thread, sounds like his group only has access to the F&D core rulebook, and as such don't have access to any of the specializations introduced in the supplementary books.

Speaking as someone that's bought every book that FFG has produced for their Star Wars line, it can be easy to forget that not everyone has access to those extra options and thus don't have as big a toolbox to pull from.

Sure, but you can also get a point of FR for under 100 XP with Sage or Seer from the core book.

On 1/17/2018 at 8:08 PM, dgamal01 said:

that is a good idea, I've considered having the group share the cost of the new books, but the issue is who gets them if we stop playing

A suggestion could be that you handle it like Organized play for Pathfinder/Starfinder does for additional books. If the players want to use something from a book the GM does not have, allow it, but they must make that book available to you at the table. If they can't provide the relevant reference material, they can't take/use those items.

That said, consider investing in the character splat books of at least the ones you would want to play as, especially if this is a long term game, the core book may not be enough.

To reply to your OP and subsequent posts, and given your limited book options, come up with an XP scale for it similar to Characteristics along the lines of {Rating Purchased X 50xp}. I would also suggest that they must "Master" all avenues for their current career, before beginning direct purchases of FP. That way they traverse the trees available to them. Since you mentioned they are all advanced characters, this isn't really too terribly burdensome a requirement. One concern I might have is that player advancement will seem ungodly slow as they won't have the intermittent talents to purchase, and I'm sure they've already maxed skills as well (or will soon after this becomes an avenue of advancement).

Another item to consider, is how are you handing dedication? it's sort of in a similar situation with Force Rating. Will you allow your players to purchase dedication in a similar matter?

A third item I would consider is encounter balance. As the GM, do you feel comfortable with high force usage. Are you prepared for minion groups to be speed bumps at best? I know you mentioned this is a long term game, but there are ramifications for skipping talents and just making Force Power an XP expenditure, such as less flexibility in defenses, less strength in those defenses, less variety in a character's tool box to deal with situations that aren't combat related, and many others.

Again, not criticizing, just wanted to throw these out here for consideration.

One option would be to look at hat is available on the specs in the additional books. If something sparks their fancy they can buy that one book. It is not like you have to save up for that long if you want one book. If everyone buys the books for the careers they are interested in it is not actually that much of an outlay. You certainly get more out of it than you would get from going to see a movie in a theater.

On 1/17/2018 at 2:56 PM, dgamal01 said:

I'd like to get some of the communities thoughts on letting players outright purchase force rating, rather than strictly from the talents. With out taking multiple specializations the most you can get is FR3. Which sucks if you don't want to take multiple specializations, like a few of my players.

I'm thinking of allowing my group to just by force rating with Xp, but with some restrictions:

First, you must have bought ALL of the talents in your base specialization.

Second, if you have any additional specializations, you must buy any Force Rating talents in those trees

The additional force rating would cost 100+(10*the next rating)

I Generally give out 25-50xp depending on what was accomplished in the session so it would still take 2-4 sessions to increase the FR.

thoughts?

You've put reasonable costing on this which I find refreshing, I came into this thread ex]ecting to use one of the new unlike reactions but I gave you a like instead. Good job

On 1/18/2018 at 3:21 AM, dgamal01 said:

doing it that way would make it way to difficult to increase, the minimum a player would pay right now is 200 based off that. We only meet like 3 Times a month so it would take almost two months if I was being super generous

Dang. My group meets once a month if we're lucky. Been going for almost a year, and nobody has FR 2 yet.

16 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

Dang. My group meets once a month if we're lucky. Been going for almost a year, and nobody has FR 2 yet.

you gotta pump those numbers up, those are rookie numbers

On ‎18‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:36 AM, Absol197 said:

How specialized are these character concepts? I'm struggling to find a reason why additional specializations wouldn't fit...

Especially if they're ex-Jedi (or even current Jedi!), just about anything from the Consular or Guardian careers should mesh very well.

I mean...like we've said, of all the proposed ways to allow purchasing Force rating without the talent, yours is the only one that doesn't destroy the fine-tuned balance of the game, so if it's what the players want then you should feel free to do it without concern, but...I just don't get it, it seems . Like I said, I'm always struggling to narrow my characters down to just one or two specializations at character creation, and they often don't feel fully fleshed out until they get four or even five!

Once I get past five, I start to struggle to find sensible new specs to add, but...never mind. Different folks, etc.

This terminology might be part of why the players in the OP are struggling a bit and leaning towards the Munchkin side in wanting to get more Force dice without the work.

There are no Jedi in Force and Destiny. Not in the sense the galaxy understands it. You're talking about a rigid instructional tradition that was part of everyday life that was also, conclusively, wiped out by Vader and Palps. What the players are is force users, and whilst they desire to become Jedi, the reality is when they get there it will look nothing like the one dimensional space ninjas who flip out and have no personality, as per the prequel era.

The conflict system is a good indicator. You're playing incorrectly if you beeline towards light side paragon, because you weren't raised in an environment where you were morally neutered by bad scripts and bad directing. You're trying to become a force user whilst also being a complex human being. 5 or so conflict per session is the minimum you'd expect - and Rey spends a bunch of time generating it in both TFA and TLJ, for reference. Even arguably the closest media example to a F&D character - Kyle Katarn in Dark Forces II - is gathering up conflict as he hunts down Jerec.

Players expecting to be paper thin characters, brown robe wearing space wizards will find the system just doesn't do what they want. Their expectations will be misaligned, and therefore they'll be seeking something huge - force rating 3. Achieving that through RAW is a massive XP cost, and it reflects the fact you're largely self-taught and have made considerable sacrifice.

If my players wanted to beef up their force rating outside of going down 2 specialisation trees, I'd say no. And if they're too widely spread on trees to make FR3 viable (I am using FR3 as a midpoint example) then they probably need direction on playing their class. But they're missing a great RP opportunity with one dice, which is to flirt with the temptation of the dark side by using black pips on the white die.

1 hour ago, Endersai said:

This terminology might be part of why the players in the OP are struggling a bit and leaning towards the Munchkin side in wanting to get more Force dice without the work.

Again, though, there is no way the proposed house rule would allow PCs to get FRs that couldn't be gotten faster by adding more talent trees. The proposed cost is a *hundred XP* plus 10x the new FR. That would be more than you normally spend for a new FR (plus a bunch of other talents on the way) except in a few weird cases where the PC already has six specs and no FR.

There is no argument to be made that the house rule would make it easier for the players to get a high FR.

4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:

Again, though, there is no way the proposed house rule would allow PCs to get FRs that couldn't be gotten faster by adding more talent trees. The proposed cost is a *hundred XP* plus 10x the new FR. That would be more than you normally spend for a new FR (plus a bunch of other talents on the way) except in a few weird cases where the PC already has six specs and no FR.

There is no argument to be made that the house rule would make it easier for the players to get a high FR.

Lol, well it's less scribbling on paper and flipping through a book, so maybe that's what they all mean. I just love how everyone keeps saying that these characters with almost 1000xp each are being lazy. I checked the characters over the weekend, the lowest spec someone has is 3 and the lowest FR is 3 (about to grab 4th with Sage tree) . But yeah, these players haven't "earned" their ratings

You said they wanted to eat their cake and have it too, though. That's precisely why we're here.

22 hours ago, dgamal01 said:

Lol, well it's less scribbling on paper and flipping through a book, so maybe that's what they all mean. I just love how everyone keeps saying that these characters with almost 1000xp each are being lazy. I checked the characters over the weekend, the lowest spec someone has is 3 and the lowest FR is 3 (about to grab 4th with Sage tree) . But yeah, these players haven't "earned" their ratings

I mentioned it earlier but it seems your PCs are on track already and that if they already all have a FR of 3 with one about to get a 4th I'm not sure what they are complaining about. After FR3 it's all just a matter of degrees of success, you're pretty much going to be awesome with every Force check. Honestly, if all they want is more dice you've already given them one for free why not just give them all another point and be done with it.

Since you're already considering altering the game mechanics, why not just make it easy on yourself and the players?

Maybe you could introduce a mechanic where they can spend 1 or 2 Destiny Points and they can add 1-2 extra FR to their Action. But it works in reverse too; NPCs can use it against them in the same way.

2 hours ago, FuriousGreg said:

I mentioned it earlier but it seems your PCs are on track already and that if they already all have a FR of 3 with one about to get a 4th I'm not sure what they are complaining about. After FR3 it's all just a matter of degrees of success, you're pretty much going to be awesome with every Force check.

What about if you want to succeed at checks and commit dice to ongoing powers?

The "FR 3 is all you'll ever need" crowd never seems to talk about committing dice for some reason.