5 hours ago, Murth said:

Two padawans are talking. The first says "look, I can lift a rock with the force, just like master did." The second responds "the rock master lifted was bigger than we are, that rock is rather small. I can lift a rock as big as master."

Both padawans have Force Rating `1, and the same upgrades to the move power. However the first one used one pip, and the second one used 2 pips. Which one probably rolled Light Side pips, and which one probably rolled Dark Side pips. And which one seems more likely to be using the Dark Side from a narrative standpoint?

I think we have the same idea as to how it should work narratively, but disagree how that best translates to the mechanics.

5 hours ago, Dafydd said:

I agree that the system isn't perfect (I've never found an RPG system that is). Using a similar example to yours, the Padawan with FR1 who only uses Light Side pips can only lift the small rock 41.7% of the time. The Padawan who is willing to use the Dark Side can always lift it.

However, the Padawan who used only the Light Side pips, probably had two to use, and thus could lift the larger rock.

@Absol197 man...you take the biscuit.

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

However, the Padawan who used only the Light Side pips, probably had two to use, and thus co  uld lift the larg  er rock.

If he rolled the pips at all, chances are the padawan that is willing to use the dark side lifts the rock and does so consistently time and time again, while the lightside only user lifts it only sometimes. "Is the dark side stronger", "No, no.... quicker, easier, more seductive" when you are willing to do anything for power you will consistently have more power. The dark side even in canon promises its user greatness, but more often then not gives them nothing but pain and suffering and in the hardest moments, the dark side usually fails it's user.

This is also better seen with a Force Rating 2 character. 2 characters both that roll a double light and 1 dark, the guy willing to use the dark side will consistently lift the bigger rock, at the risk of conflict, and once he has enough conflict that is when the dark side that offered him so much, now only gives him suffering.

Okay, wanted to give this a boost again; I've noticed we've had some new people, and with Rise of the Separatists coming out soon, I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of new Jedi characters being rolled up. This might come in useful .

Would you be willing to do the numbers for alternate force systems?

12 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Would you be willing to do the numbers for alternate force systems?

How do you mean? What different systems for the dice are there that I haven't covered? Depending on what it is, I very well might!

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

How do you mean? What different systems for the dice are there that I haven't covered? Depending on what it is, I very well might!

So I mentioned in another thread, my housrule allows both lightsider and darksider access to all pips, for a price. So it matters how many of the "wrong" type is rolled with the "right" type. It doesnt look like your statistic covers that.

(The text of my houserule: Lightside force users get all pips they roll, and take conflict for every dark pip they roll, unless they take a strain to resist the lure of a dark pip. You may roll less force dice than your force rating for any reason, and a destiny point purifies all pips. Once you fall to darkness, lightpips no longer give their power freely, but you may bend them to your will for a strain OR WOUND each, and of course dark pips are available for the low cost of a conflict each, with a destiny flip making all pips available.)

Ah, I did already cover that . Look at the "Grey Pip" charts. Those give you the statistics for rolls where you can access both types of pips.

On 2/12/2019 at 8:32 AM, Murth said:

The Dark Side should be tempting because it feels more powerful, not because the Light Side failed you. I think that would be better represented if when the dice did come up Dark Side, it was more likely to be 2 pips instead of one. The reason I was searching for statistics on force dice was the Light Side was feeling more powerful to me, and the dark side was feeling more consistent, and I wanted to see if the math backed that up. To me it does, and it feels wrong.

Why should that feel wrong? I mean, they established back in Empire that the dark side isn't stronger. Luke specifically asks Yoda that, and he says "No, quicker, easier, more seductive". To me, the dice perfectly reflect that. If you're willing to take the conflict for using dark side pips, you will be able to more quickly use your Force powers (less likely to fail by refusing to use a dark pip), it will be much easier (since more dice sides have dark pips, you have a much higher %chance to get a pip and thus activate a power), and it's of course more seductive (come oooon, you know you want to use that power right now, instead of waiting another turn in the hopes of getting a light pip.....cooome ooooon). But, the trade off is, odds are you are only going to get 1 pip. So you won't be able to trigger any fun upgrades.

But, the Light Side, has more faces with 2 pips. Meaning, while it can be more difficult for a young Force user to roll the Light Side, when they do, they are far more likely to have 2 pips to play with, and thus activate various upgrades. So while the Light side might be a slower path to power (you opt to not use dark pips, and thus don't use a Force power that turn, taking you longer to actually do something cool), it DOES give you access to more power consistently, when compared to Dark. And as you increase your Force pool, you increase your odds of having at least one die coming up Light. And again, that Light side has a much better chance of giving you 2 pips. So using Light side, does give you more power in the long term which is basically what Yoda said.

So yeah, I don't really see what the problem is about the design.

On 4/26/2019 at 7:58 AM, KungFuFerret said:

Why should that feel wrong? I mean, they established back in Empire that the dark side isn't stronger. Luke specifically asks Yoda that, and he says "No, quicker, easier, more seductive". To me, the dice perfectly reflect that. If you're willing to take the conflict for using dark side pips, you will be able to more quickly use your Force powers (less likely to fail by refusing to use a dark pip), it will be much easier (since more dice sides have dark pips, you have a much higher %chance to get a pip and thus activate a power), and it's of course more seductive (come oooon, you know you want to use that power right now, instead of waiting another turn in the hopes of getting a light pip.....cooome ooooon). But, the trade off is, odds are you are only going to get 1 pip. So you won't be able to trigger any fun upgrades.

But, the Light Side, has more faces with 2 pips. Meaning, while it can be more difficult for a young Force user to roll the Light Side, when they do, they are far more likely to have 2 pips to play with, and thus activate various upgrades. So while the Light side might be a slower path to power (you opt to not use dark pips, and thus don't use a Force power that turn, taking you longer to actually do something cool), it DOES give you access to more power consistently, when compared to Dark. And as you increase your Force pool, you increase your odds of having at least one die coming up Light. And again, that Light side has a much better chance of giving you 2 pips. So using Light side, does give you more power in the long term which is basically what Yoda said.

So yeah, I don't really see what the problem is about the design.

Ok I know this thread is old, but I wanted to add one more Empire strikes back quote to this that ALSO shows why Light can sometimes have consistency problems and dark side not makes sense. "but beware the dark side, anger, fear, aggression the dark side are they, easily they flow quick to join you in a fight."

2 hours ago, tunewalker said:

Ok I know this thread is old, but I wanted to add one more Empire strikes back quote to this that ALSO shows why Light can sometimes have consistency problems and dark side not makes sense. "but beware the dark side, anger, fear, aggression the dark side are they, easily they flow quick to join you in a fight."

Well yeah, but I mean that's not even really a surprising statement really, for anyone. Emotions run high in stressful situations, situations like a combat encounter. Everyone will feel any combination of fear, anger, anxiety, sadness, adrenaline rush fueled excitement, etc. That's just how organic beings function when put into a high-risk situation. Which is when it's REALLY easy for someone to tap into the Dark Side, either on purpose or by accident. The whole point of the Jedi training, was to teach Control. Not the iradication of emotions, because that's just not physically possible. But you can train yourself to not let those emotions control your actions. To think calmly, and clearly (to the best of your abilities), about what's going on, and reacting accordingly. Because it's REALLY easy to act impulsively in a heated situation, and just Force Choke a fool, or Move them off a cliff, or any number of instant gratification, but probably not a good idea, actions. And that's how a Sith operates. They don't see any reason NOT, to just indulge their impulses, to just cut someone down with a lightsaber, or hurl lightning at them because they are in their way, or offended them. Why shouldn't they do it? They WANT to do it, doing what they want feels good, and gets them what they WANT. Who cares if they leave a trail of pain and suffering in their wake? That's someone elses problem.

And being able to think clearly in the heat of the moment, isn't easy, and staying level headed enough to tap into this cosmic energy source to do things, without resorting to the impulsive nature of it (Dark), isn't easy. To anyone who has ever been in a serious situation, you can probably recall thinking about what actions you took after the fact, and realizing you did a few things reflexively, and that if you had "had your wits about you," you would've done things differently. That's the kind of moments that the Dark Side lives in, waiting to offer you that cookie.

46 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Well yeah, but I mean that's not even really a surprising statement really, for anyone. Emotions run high in stressful situations, situations like a combat encounter. Everyone will feel any combination of fear, anger, anxiety, sadness, adrenaline rush fueled excitement, etc. That's just how organic beings function when put into a high-risk situation. Which is when it's REALLY easy for someone to tap into the Dark Side, either on purpose or by accident. The whole point of the Jedi training, was to teach Control. Not the iradication of emotions, because that's just not physically possible. But you can train yourself to not let those emotions control your actions. To think calmly, and clearly (to the best of your abilities), about what's going on, and reacting accordingly. Because it's REALLY easy to act impulsively in a heated situation, and just Force Choke a fool, or Move them off a cliff, or any number of instant gratification, but probably not a good idea, actions. And that's how a Sith operates. They don't see any reason NOT, to just indulge their impulses, to just cut someone down with a lightsaber, or hurl lightning at them because they are in their way, or offended them. Why shouldn't they do it? They WANT to do it, doing what they want feels good, and gets them what they WANT. Who cares if they leave a trail of pain and suffering in their wake? That's someone elses problem.

And being able to think clearly in the heat of the moment, isn't easy, and staying level headed enough to tap into this cosmic energy source to do things, without resorting to the impulsive nature of it (Dark), isn't easy. To anyone who has ever been in a serious situation, you can probably recall thinking about what actions you took after the fact, and realizing you did a few things reflexively, and that if you had "had your wits about you," you would've done things differently. That's the kind of moments that the Dark Side lives in, waiting to offer you that cookie.

My thoughts exactly .