The points saved on one flotilla (Strategic Adviser) give me an idea.... I've always struggled with the Lib against other large base ships.

MC80 Lib Battle Cruiser - Madine, MonKarren, Heavy Ion (new), Stategic Adviser (new), ET, Spinals, XI7??, Caitken & Shollan (new).

I ran some dice and if an average set of reds (3.75 expected damage) happen, then reroll the blues (unless you already have the crit). Total damage 3 shield (due to crit) + 4-6 standard. Once the shields are down, reroll the reds for max hull damage. I've always disliked using Leading Shots and sometimes don't need it. This looks it may gives a better chance against an ISD or MC80 Home One. FYI, I often pair this with an H9 Admo for my light (flotilla) work.

@GiledPallaeon, @Vergilius, what do you think about 'our' prospects with the Liberty here? What's the other Turbolaser Upgrade that fits since XI7's don't jive as well with the Heavy Ion Emplacements? I might just want to keep 'em to increase the chance at one shotting small base ships. I went Battle Cruiser so the red dice can do work after I get back behind them and they are trying to run away.

I would probably step down to a Star Cruiser if you really want it to work. That way you have four blues, so you should with decent frequency get the blue crit anyway (48% says my mental guesstimations) and you have even better chances with the reroll, If you add C&S you should be all set. I'd drop MK, they'll only ever brace or scatter, so that sidelong shield damage is inefficient and that forward shield you can get with ICB and four points less, but I would keep Spinals for the long range fire as you laid out. XI7 is definitely my default second turbo normally, but I see your concerns. Another possibility is the H9s to block the brace and MK so it's either redirect or DCO Contain (on those ships that's relevant for), but that seems a little expensive. In this scenario, maybe you could use DTTs as a secondary red reroll when you need the Bros for the ion cannon? Saves a point over XI7.

More generally speaking, I do think HIE on Star Cruisers and the odd Battle Cruiser (needs the rerolls from the Bros, I agree) will work very well. I don't often have a free officer slot for Strategic Advisor, but I may go fix that now that I know it exists. What the Lib really wants is Hardened Bulkheads, too bad there isn't a Offensive Retrofit slot on the ship.

14 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

What the Lib really wants is Hardened Bulkheads, too bad there isn't a Offensive Retrofit slot on the ship.

That was exactly my thought process when I saw the card. WOW this is going to be amazing on my Liberty! Oh... wait....

20 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

I would probably step down to a Star Cruiser if you really want it to work. That way you have four blues, so you should with decent frequency get the blue crit anyway (48% says my mental guesstimations) and you have even better chances with the reroll, If you add C&S you should be all set. I'd drop MK, they'll only ever brace or scatter, so that sidelong shield damage is inefficient and that forward shield you can get with ICB and four points less, but I would keep Spinals for the long range fire as you laid out. XI7 is definitely my default second turbo normally, but I see your concerns. Another possibility is the H9s to block the brace and MK so it's either redirect or DCO Contain (on those ships that's relevant for), but that seems a little expensive. In this scenario, maybe you could use DTTs as a secondary red reroll when you need the Bros for the ion cannon? Saves a point over XI7.

More generally speaking, I do think HIE on Star Cruisers and the odd Battle Cruiser (needs the rerolls from the Bros, I agree) will work very well. I don't often have a free officer slot for Strategic Advisor, but I may go fix that now that I know it exists. What the Lib really wants is Hardened Bulkheads, too bad there isn't a Offensive Retrofit slot on the ship.

With 4 blue dice, the odds of a crit are around 68.4%. With a reroll, it goes up to 90%!

I agree that XI7s are kind of unnecessary with HIEs, though. I'd consider leaving the second turbolaser slot open, but DTTs would get my vote otherwise.

I'm realizing now that this should have been posted in the Fleet Design subforum, oops.

This ship is so fun to configure. DTT's would be great, but Spinals already have the Modification spot used.

Good thought on the MK title being partially unnecessary since brace/scatter are the only really good defense here. That makes H9's a bit more attractive and rules out Heavy Turbos. H9's seem a bit unnecessary on the SC with 4 rerollable blue dice, however.

I'm still conflicted about going to the Star Cruiser variant. The Battle Cruiser likes having more 'chaser cannons' in the additional red die (especially with the brothers), but three blue may be a bit too lean even with the reroll. I may have to try it in flight.

FWIW - My two favorite turbolaser upgrades for the Liberty is the H9/Quad Turbolaser cannons. It's like having spinal armaments in every arc...

I'm going to have to seriously sit down with the wave and think through a Liberty and/or Madine build with it. Some of this depends upon how greatly it affects the rest of the meta, which in turn affects how a Madine Liberty list is going to match up against the rest of the meta. For example, do two Large bases suddenly become really popular or even dominant? Do all the anti-squadron upgrades impact how often squadrons are taken? I honestly don't know the answers to these questions. When I look over the cards and combinations extremely thoroughly, I can have a good prediction about what might work, but even that is subject to surprises later.

I can give some general tips against different types of units. You mention having problems with other larges. The key here is that the other units in your list need to be able to help in some way. I've done this a lot of ways myself. For example, a double-arcing MC30 can tear down the shields on an ISD, allowing follow-up shots from the Liberty to take it down. The brace either gets spent twice in one round, or locked out entirely by the Liberty if no ECM. TRC90s are one of the preeminent big-ship killers. Whether that continues in a post-Early Warning Radar world is any guess, because losing a die really cuts down on TRC efficiency, though you also have the advantage of positioning and firing into multiple hull zones. Finally, in my latest regional, I ran Intel Officer, XI7, plus squadrons. The squadrons can bore through a single hull zone, the IO strips the Brace, and the XI7 ensures that the redirect only ever sends away one damage. All of these options will take down an ISD in two rounds, which is what most good lists can do when flown well. What I do wonder about is whether EWR will shut down that last option.

Now, maybe if you want to give up one of the many other really good officers, the Strategic officer could work. It is just that I can think of several options that really work with the Liberty: Raymus, Derlin, SFO, Intel Officer, even Lando. Any of those is a lot to give up for Strategic Officer. And there's a question of how many flotillas/activations you really want. After all, usually after the big round in which the sides clash, the flotilla filler activations are dead weight, which means that SO is also mostly dead weight, but you could have had another officer.

I don't know. I'll just have to play around with it.

As for Heavy Ion. I think they are likely better on a CR90-B. That upgrade might bring them back to the table in a big way. I mean an SW-7 that double-arced was good because it overwhelmed defense tokens and knocked shields down pretty fast. Now, we're talking about doing all of that even more so. Even if you can only get it to trigger on one arc, you've still likely outpaced your SW-7 damage. After all, SW-7 was a flat 6 on a CF. Heavy Ion could potentially take you to 9, with something like 8 being more reasonable, but even 7 is still in the plus. Add engine techs, deliver your anti-big ship shot, and then go ram some flotillas.

39 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

As for Heavy Ion. I think they are likely better on a CR90-B. That upgrade might bring them back to the table in a big way. I mean an SW-7 that double-arced was good because it overwhelmed defense tokens and knocked shields down pretty fast. Now, we're talking about doing all of that even more so. Even if you can only get it to trigger on one arc, you've still likely outpaced your SW-7 damage. After all, SW-7 was a flat 6 on a CF. Heavy Ion could potentially take you to 9, with something like 8 being more reasonable, but even 7 is still in the plus. Add engine techs, deliver your anti-big ship shot, and then go ram some flotillas.

Heavy Ions exhaust on use, so you can't double arc and use them twice.

2 minutes ago, Formynder4 said:

Heavy Ions tap on use, so you can't double arc and use them twice.

2 minutes ago, Formynder4 said:

Heavy Ions tap on use, so you can't double arc and use them twice.

Thanks! That's what happens when they just release today and I spend the day at work. It is these little details that matter. You can still double arc because double-arcing is better, and because 6 blue dice give you plenty more chances to have them trigger. And they only really need to trigger once.

6 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Thanks! That's what happens when they just release today and I spend the day at work. It is these little details that matter. You can still double arc because double-arcing is better, and because 6 blue dice give you plenty more chances to have them trigger. And they only really need to trigger once.

I still think I prefer SW7s there. Against targets lacking a redirect, the HIE is effectively adding one damage, where SW7s will frequently have a similar effect for less cost and can be applied to both attacks.

I do think the HIEs could be good on an LMC80 Star Cruiser, VSD-II, Interdictor, or Raider-II, though. Disposable Capacitors helps tremendously, and the Imperials just do that (and dice-fixing with Screed/Vader) better.

5 hours ago, Snipafist said:

With 4 blue dice, the odds of a crit are around 68.4%. With a reroll, it goes up to 90%!

I agree that XI7s are kind of unnecessary with HIEs, though. I'd consider leaving the second turbolaser slot open, but DTTs would get my vote otherwise.

Remember Dual Turbolaser Turrets are a modification for some reason.

23 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

Thanks! That's what happens when they just release today and I spend the day at work. It is these little details that matter. You can still double arc because double-arcing is better, and because 6 blue dice give you plenty more chances to have them trigger. And they only really need to trigger once.

You know, I kind of like that they exhaust. Makes me feel better about using them in this mindset instead of feeling like the dice cheated me when they only proc in one arc...

23 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I still think I prefer SW7s there. Against targets lacking a redirect, the HIE is effectively adding one damage, where SW7s will frequently have a similar effect for less cost and can be applied to both attacks.

I do think the HIEs could be good on an LMC80 Star Cruiser, VSD-II, Interdictor, or Raider-II, though. Disposable Capacitors helps tremendously, and the Imperials just do that (and dice-fixing with Screed/Vader) better.

I wonder though. How many times is that SW-7 really shooting at something without a redirect? Their most important role is anti-big, and to a lesser extent, anti-medium ship, pretty much all of which have redirects. And you put them in lists where the explicit point is to push the damage through and wear out the shields.

I'd think the Star Cruiser maybe. Depends upon how the rest of the fleet is built around it. The rest I agree with.