The only difference in interpretation, for those who haven’t followed is basically : if you use your ISD in an earlier activation, say, because you just last/firsted it this turn, can you pass as your second or subsequent activation.

That is the difference in “intent” being argued.

As we have established the arguments on RAW grounds in both directions to an impasse, I am now going to indulge in personal soeculative design intent ?

To me, at 4 points, it’s cheap enough to have the “additional” drawback of that activation order requirement... That if the ship in question can not activate, it cannot pass it’s actuvation.

personally, given the flotilla at 18 points barebones, I think even 10 points would be cheap for a pass mook. 4 is just super cheap.

Maybe. 4 points would indeed be ridiculously cheap if not for the "Large ship only" restriction, which is huge .

I see it essentially as a 14-point discount deal on a [large ship+flotilla] package, but with some hefty strings attached (no officer slot, and no actual flotilla - meaning no comms net, no relaying, no extra body for Most Wanted / objective-grabbing / tabling prevention...). Sometimes it'll be a good deal. Sometimes your build will still want that flotilla for reasons other than activation warfare.

So if the card cannot be used unless the ship itself is unactivated, does this mean that the following card may only be used if the ship it is on is unactivated?

The Grand Inquisitor 4pts Imperial Officer Upgrade.

" When an enemy ship distance 1-5 changes its speed, you may exhaust this card to increase or decrease your speed by 1. "

The "you" is obviously referring to both the ship itself and the player who owns it, the "your" is to signify the ship equipped with it may change its speed.

The same for ECMs, worded almost identically it would be a major nerf to the effectiveness of ECMS if they can only be used on unactivated ships, again something you feel is now the case...would TO's really rule this?

I mean this could be another Intel Officer case...where we we're all unknowingly using it incorrectly for several waves of the game. Some of us didn't want it to be the way it is supposed to be myself top of the list.

5 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

So if the card cannot be used unless the ship itself is unactivated, does this mean that the following card may only be used if the ship it is on is unactivated?

The Grand Inquisitor 4pts Imperial Officer Upgrade.

" When an enemy ship distance 1-5 changes its speed, you may exhaust this card to increase or decrease your speed by 1. "

The "you" is obviously referring to both the ship itself and the player who owns it, the "your" is to signify the ship equipped with it may change its speed.

The same for ECMs, worded almost identically it would be a major nerf to the effectiveness of ECMS if they can only be used on unactivated ships, again something you feel is now the case...would TO's really rule this?

You argue a false corrallary.

The reason why is not explicitly becayse its activated - you can totally do things after you are activated... all of those above things are examples. Ships can do things without activating.

The reason why you cannot in that interpretation is the timing window - “when you would activate.” Basically.

if you have already activated, then you don’t reach the window of when you would activate.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

You argue a false corrallary.

The reason why is not explicitly becayse its activated - you can totally do things after you are activated... all of those above things are examples. Ships can do things without activating.

The reason why you cannot in that interpretation is the timing window - “when you would activate.” Basically.

if you have already activated, then you don’t reach the window of when you would activate.

But it does not say "when you would activate."

It says "when its your turn to activate." the only part that says "you" is on the exhaust part.

Ships do not have turns, players do.

Just now, TheEasternKing said:

But it does not say "when you would activate."

It says "when its your turn to activate." the only part that says "you" is on the exhaust part.

Ships do not have turns, players do.

If you as a player pick a ship, it’s then that ships turn.

But mostly, as I stated, I am indulging in personal design speculation.

Ratget than continuing to ram RAW down my throat in reply to potential intent, please consider taking a moment to at least comment on my comments, or frame a response I kind. I would be appreciative to know how my thoughts are taken. ?

All I am saying is the "you" on The grand Inquisitor is a permissor, it is not a referral to the ship it is attached to, it is stating you have permission in these circumstances and only in the trigger circumstance may you exhaust the card and resolve the effect it generates.

Ordnance Experts the "you" is a direct statement of ownership, IE only the ship it attached to and in the described circumstance, in this case "while attacking".

With that being said, the only "you" on SA is a permissor "you", it is not an ownership "you".

When you start the game turn sequence is dictated by player order, player one goes first, they pick a ship to activate, and then follow all the steps laid out in a the ship activation sequence. it then switches to player two and is repeated untill all ships have been activated. This card does not say pick a ship to activate then you may exhaust this card if you picked this ship. it states "when it is your turn to activate." this is a statement of in the period when you would pick a ship and follow all the steps of ship activation, instead do not do that at all, instead exhaust this card, in which case the ship it is on has no bearing on when it is used, it just has to be in play and unexhausted.

To be honest it's all a bit of a mess.

I think it's simple, others (with some justification) don't. FFG need to tell us exactly what 'you' means because it clearly cannot mean just ship.

Even if it's just simply something like: 'You' refers to the ship an upgrade card is equipped to unless the target/task being undertaken is obviously a physical player action' [for given definitions of 'obvious' and 'physical!]

eg Intel Officer: states '...after you roll...' the ship clearly can't roll the dice so this means the player but all other mentions of 'you' refers to the ship.
eg Bail Organa: states '...if you are the first player, you may gain...' obviously the ship cannot be the first player so that means you the player, the other 'you' refers to the ship.
eg Ordnance Experts: states '...you may reroll and of your black dice.' again, the ship clearly can't roll the dice so this means the player but all other mentions of 'you' refers to the ship.
eg ECM: states '...you may exhaust...' and '...your opponent...' both of these refer to 'physical' 'tasks' and so both mean you the player as ships can't physically exhaust cards and don't have opponents.

There is probably a card or two that will 'break ' this idea but seems to be logical to me!

3 minutes ago, Kendraam said:

To be honest it's all a bit of a mess.

You won't get much argument there!

As I just posted in response to Dras, and to try make him feel less like I am brow beating him.

There are two very distinct "You" in Armada.

An Ownership "you".

A Permissor "you".

And that is what people are confusing.

And Dras I know it must seem like I only ever disagree with you, I can assure you nothing is further from the truth, I read every thread around here, and 99% of the time I am on board with what you say, so much so there is no real need for me to say anything at all in the topic being discussed, I find you very helpful, very knowledgeable and very very dedicated and I sincerely value the invaluable contribution you make to this game and these forums. I guess I should try and post sometimes in threads where I am in complete agreement with you, so you know...instead of expecting you to understand when I am not posting its because I do agree with you.

Anyway I always enjoy the discourse we have here, (sincerely) thank you for your time and commitment.

Part of me wants to convert one of my Interdictors into a dice-tower/roller now.... just so thevship can roll/reroll dice ?

I feel like maybe they would have worded it like ahsoka if it was to cover your entire fleet...

ahsoka reads "during the activation of a friendly ship at distance 1-5 you may exhaust this card to..."

but pass officer insect head doesn't read like that at all

1 hour ago, SkyCake said:

pass officer insect head

This is his name.

For what it's worth, put my vote in the "must be exhausted before the ship it is assigned to has activated". I believe the "your turn to activate" sentence does indeed refer to that ship (as the controlling player would nominate that ship to take its turn), though the wording is sloppy I admit. I think that if the intent was that it could be used even if that ship had already activated this turn, the wording would look more like "before a friendly ship activates..."

I've read both sides of this debate, so I understand the counter-argument... I just think the above interpretation is more likely, and how I would rule it in a tournament setting.

3 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

For what it's worth, put my vote in the "must be exhausted before the ship it is assigned to has activated". I believe the "your turn to activate" sentence does indeed refer to that ship (as the controlling player would nominate that ship to take its turn), though the wording is sloppy I admit. I think that if the intent was that it could be used even if that ship had already activated this turn, the wording would look more like "before a friendly ship activates..."

I've read both sides of this debate, so I understand the counter-argument... I just think the above interpretation is more likely, and how I would rule it in a tournament setting.

I agree with this, all upgrades that have a "you", even though that "you" may reffer to the player, have some refference to the ship they're equipped to (except commanders). So in this case, that refference is that the "you" in this card implies that the ship the upgrade is equipped to has to have the chance to activate. If not, as you just said, it should have written "before a friendly ship activates" or something like that.

Except many cards do not have a you on them that is a ownership you.

I mean when it says "you may exhaust this card." that is not ownership, that is permission, which is not the same thing as "When you attack" two very very different things.

7 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Except many cards do not have a you on them that is a ownership you.

I mean when it says "you may exhaust this card." that is not ownership, that is permission, which is not the same thing as "When you attack" two very very different things.

I'm not saying that it's impossible that the designer's intent was to allow this card to be used regardless of whether the owning ship had already activated, having "you" refer to the player. I'm simply saying that in my opinion, that is the weaker of the two interpretations and not how I would personally rule this. Other groups may feel otherwise and rule how they wish.

As usual, an official FAQ will end up being the deciding vote.

Please don't break Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Please don't break Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams.

Are you suggesting that the "you" on Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams card could potentially be interpreted as meaning the player? Hmmm.... Interesting. I wonder what size class I would be considered? Sadly, I'd probably be out of range since I don't normally sit on the playing area, and as I lack a proper base, I'm not certain exactly where to measure from regardless....

5 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Please don't break Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams.

Tractor beams :

"When you activate" = Ownership

"You may exhaust." = permission

You may exhaust is permission to use a card in the correct trigger situation, literally "you may if you so chose, exhaust this card and generate effect X." which is not the ownership "you" being referred to in the rulebook.

49 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Tractor beams :

"When you activate" = Ownership

"You may exhaust." = permission

You may exhaust is permission to use a card in the correct trigger situation, literally "you may if you so chose, exhaust this card and generate effect X." which is not the ownership "you" being referred to in the rulebook.

Does any of this have any basis in RRG, FAQ, or the tourney regs?

8 hours ago, LeatherPants said:

Are you suggesting that the "you" on Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams card could potentially be interpreted as meaning the player? Hmmm.... Interesting. I wonder what size class I would be considered? Sadly, I'd probably be out of range since I don't normally sit on the playing area, and as I lack a proper base, I'm not certain exactly where to measure from regardless....

As long as ships don't activate rather than players activate then yes.

However;

Maybe I have problems understanding all that thing about ownership, permission etc.

You = this ship

Your = this ship's

3 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

Tractor beams :

"When you activate" = Ownership

"You may exhaust." = permission

You may exhaust is permission to use a card in the correct trigger situation, literally "you may if you so chose, exhaust this card and generate effect X." which is not the ownership "you" being referred to in the rulebook.

Ships activates, ships roll dice, ships exhaust upgrades. That's all.

Players take turns just mean there is a sequence of activation. When is my turn as player just mean I play now as the sequence dictates. Ships have also turns to activate. They have them when the player who take its own choose them to activate it so it's that ship's turn to activate cause it's its turn in the sequence.

"When is your turn to activate"

We know "your" means "this ship's" per the rules. When is this ship's turn to activate? Whenever its ownership (the player) chose to activate it after taking a turn to activate.

Turn is not defined. All we know is that players activate ships when it is their turn but we don't know anything else like duration, steps, who can act during it. Actually what defines a turn is an activation. Player's turns = ship activation/2 squad activation depending in the phase. Taking turns just mean activate ships in a sequence. A ship's turn is a ship's place on that sequence. That's all.

I understand what you said though.

2 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

You = this ship
.
.
.
We know "your" means "this ship's" per the rules.

What about Bail? The final sentence states '...if you are the second player...' This cannot mean the ship, therefore 'you' does NOT always mean 'this ship'.

So it appears FFG have changed what 'you' means (otherwise Bail literally makes no sense) and we have no real way to decide how to read 'you' any more. Thus the clue is when it states 'When it is your turn...' since only players take turns.

I would suggest that 'you' always refers to ships except when using words that do not apply to ships: turn, second player, opponent etc. But we will need FFG to clarify since they have effectively changed the rules.

so after 3 pages we have discovered that' you' on an upgrade card mean ship except for when it doesnt, and we dont know when it doesnt because we havent been told yet.