18 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

It does. At least if we base the argument on who takes turns. I didn't check the whole RRG but on the main sections ships don't activate. Players do.

I'm not saying that who does the activating makes no difference at all. I'm saying that it makes no difference to this argument because either way, ships (and squadrons) are always linked to activations , never to turns . Turns are only ever linked to players .

Having said that... you're also wrong

Ships and squadrons both "activate" (themselves) and "are activated" (by players). FFG uses such wording interchangeably in the RRG and FAQ.

Example:

Ship Activation, p.11

Ships are activated during the Ship Phase. When a ship is activated , its owner proceeds through the following steps:

[...]

• After a ship activates , place its revealed command dial faceup on its ship card to track that it has activated .

• Each ship can activate only once per round.

8 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

So what you're saying is... I am the Star Destroyer.

I say you would like to. And that's the true reason for your ruling.

I'm pretty sure I was told in no uncertain terms that "you" is always a reference to the ship and never the player, and now the very people who did so...are agreeing it sometimes means the player?? /scratchhead

So?

I have a feeling. FFG has been purposefully doing ambiguous wording to our cards everytime, so they can see how we play, then faq it how they want, or change the other way whenever, then tada no need for errata...

3 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'm pretty sure I was told in no uncertain terms that "you" is always a reference to the ship and never the player, and now the very people who did so...are agreeing it sometimes means the player?? /scratchhead

Only a Sith deals in absolutes...

But yeah, it's infuriating.

5 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'm pretty sure I was told in no uncertain terms that "you" is always a reference to the ship and never the player, and now the very people who did so...are agreeing it sometimes means the player?? /scratchhead

Don’t look at me. I’m in the no-act chance, no strat chance camp.

6 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I'm pretty sure I was told in no uncertain terms that "you" is always a reference to the ship and never the player ...

Having re-read the cards it seems clear to me that "you/your" always means the ship to which the card is attached, even when the sense on the card indicates the player.

The convention the writer is using is that if the player can choose which ship, "friendly ship/it" is used. If the player cannot choose which ship, "you/your" is used. When the writer does refer to the player as "you/your" he is treating the player as the agent of the ship, since a ship can clearly not act (e.g. move tokens, etc) by itself. However the action to be taken by the player is taken on behalf of the ship to which the upgrade card is equipped and the "you/your" effect is limited to that ship.

* Looks around for shelter *

This discussion has been super interesting, and I've really enjoyed it even as we muddle toward some semblance of consistency in our thinking. It is through this sort of discussion that you arrive at interesting rules of thumb that end up solving all sorts of potential problems and/or inconsistencies in rules interpretation. Results of discussions like this are things like: 1) The full extent of an effect or rule must be applied before going on to another, and 2) Distances bands do not include one another. I've read through those old discussions a while ago, and this discussion has struck me as similar: an old assumption was challenged by a new effect and made the rules gurus (I do NOT include myself at all; I'm an interested observer, for the most part) better define their terms and positions. Nice work, folks.

I think this one is still ambiguous, but Dras' explanation that ships often stand in as a proxy for the player, sometimes doing things that only players can really do, is germane to the topic. This explanation weakens the position that "you" on this card refers specifically to the player, but I still think it is a bit up in the air.

1 hour ago, RobertK said:

This discussion has been super interesting, and I've really enjoyed it even as we muddle toward some semblance of consistency in our thinking. It is through this sort of discussion that you arrive at interesting rules of thumb that end up solving all sorts of potential problems and/or inconsistencies in rules interpretation. Results of discussions like this are things like: 1) The full extent of an effect or rule must be applied before going on to another, and 2) Distances bands do not include one another. I've read through those old discussions a while ago, and this discussion has struck me as similar: an old assumption was challenged by a new effect and made the rules gurus (I do NOT include myself at all; I'm an interested observer, for the most part) better define their terms and positions. Nice work, folks.

I think this one is still ambiguous, but Dras' explanation that ships often stand in as a proxy for the player, sometimes doing things that only players can really do, is germane to the topic. This explanation weakens the position that "you" on this card refers specifically to the player, but I still think it is a bit up in the air.

Yep. Interesting. I am still on the camp where "take turns" just means "alternate" and that is something ship also do de facto.

But I don't care too much if this is one way or another. I don't like the card. I think the limitation make it a bit more interesting though.

They (everyone who writes manuals) should use a special font when mentioning a term to be used as it is defined in, say, a term glossary. By special font, it can be bold or italicized . Otherwise, the term should be in normal font.

That way the reader knows the term is to be used in the way defined, not by language definition.

Yes... but it starts to become unwieldy when every word in a sentence (right down to "you") needs to be defined.

I mean...

" When it is your turn to activate , you may exhaust this card to pass your turn ( your opponent activates a ship instead )."

Each of these is either given a specific well-defined meaning in the RRG, or has been hotly debated because it needs one.

I mean does the wording really matter this much? It is your turn activate, exhaust this card and pass your turn. Meaning the ship doesent activate and your opponents has to activates, unless hes doing strategic advisor right after. After your opponent plays his turn, you are free to use any ships, since the cost is exhausting the card, you did not activate anything. If your large ship activated without using strategy advisors, you can no longer use it. There are other You cards from before even bail that gives you the opportunity to use something when you arent activated, like interdictor title, g-8, but they tell you exactly when you(the ship) can use them. Same for fleet commands.

So the logical wording is that when it is your large ship turn to activate (this is when ever you want it to be, you may exhaust this card to pass your turn. Meaning your large ship just skipping a turn and is not activated. The window of this card ends, this is now your opponents turn. Match resumes as normal. Every single turn that your large ship is not activated, it is his turn to activate at your choosing.

16 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Yep. Interesting. I am still on the camp where "take turns" just means "alternate" and that is something ship also do de facto.

But I don't care too much if this is one way or another. I don't like the card. I think the limitation make it a bit more interesting though.

I'm coming round to thinking this now too.

The problem is the following '...your turn..', now we know (at we did ) that 'you/your' refers to the ship only but only players take 'turns' so we immediately have a disconnect.

The two inferences are:

a) 'turn' can only reference players and since we now have other cards where 'you' means the player (eg Bail) this means the card just means the player player skips a turn by exhausting the card whether the ship is activated or not.

b) 'you' still only refers to the ship and 'turn' just means when it is time for the ship to activate (ie when the player decides to (not) activate it and it's just sloppy writing by FFG. Thus if the ship has activated you can't exhaust the card because the time for the ship to activate has passed.

I'm firmly in the camp that thinks the card should do what it says a) the player just skips a turn but I now think that actually FFG mean it work as option b)

There will thus be two options for playing it:

a) you'll be able to use it flexibly in any fleet that wants to go first, last, either or both.
b) it'll be useless if you only have one large ship that needs to be your first activation.

On 01/02/2018 at 1:25 PM, mintek917 said:

I mean does the wording really matter this much? It is your turn activate, exhaust this card and pass your turn. Meaning the ship doesent activate and your opponents has to activates, unless hes doing strategic advisor right after. After your opponent plays his turn, you are free to use any ships, since the cost is exhausting the card, you did not activate anything. If your large ship activated without using strategy advisors, you can no longer use it. There are other You cards from before even bail that gives you the opportunity to use something when you arent activated, like interdictor title, g-8, but they tell you exactly when you(the ship) can use them. Same for fleet commands.

So the logical wording is that when it is your large ship turn to activate (this is when ever you want it to be, you may exhaust this card to pass your turn. Meaning your large ship just skipping a turn and is not activated. The window of this card ends, this is now your opponents turn. Match resumes as normal. Every single turn that your large ship is not activated, it is his turn to activate at your choosing.

Time to present a Third Option! Came to me as I red this post. What if it is:

The player chooses this ship. It is this ship's(your) turn to activate. If you pass by SA, your opponent must activate something, then immediately after you must activate, not something else!

my understanding here is that the ship passes its turn, once, allowing an enemy to activate before it, before it continues the turn it was supposed to do.

Much more tight for this explanation, but very strategic

It would make the card pretty terrible, telegraphing exactly when the ship equipped with it is going to activate.

That being said, I cannot see how you came to that conclusion nothing on the card even hints that it must be activated exclusively after its used to pass.

57 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

It would make the card pretty terrible, telegraphing exactly when the ship equipped with it is going to activate.

That being said, I cannot see how you came to that conclusion nothing on the card even hints that it must be activated exclusively after its used to pass.

It's kind of a logical step if you strictly adhere to the '...your turn to activate...' means the ship. Because we don't really know what FFG intend 'turn' to mean in this context.

But, as I mentioned on the first page of this thread, it doesn't really make any sense.

On 17/01/2018 at 4:39 PM, Kendraam said:

Let's assume the card does mean only the ship it's attached to - when do you the player know when it is that's ships turn to activate? Ships don't activate in turn, they activate whenever you the player decide they do. Also, when your 'turn' passes are you then required to have that ship take it's turn next, or can you use another ship? If you choose another ship then you've effectively passed that ship again...unless you MUST activate the previously passed ship but then it doesn't say that anywhere. This doesn't make sense.

3 hours ago, Muelmuel said:

Time to present a Third Option! Came to me as I red this post. What if it is:

The player chooses this ship. It is this ship's(your) turn to activate. If you pass by SA, your opponent must activate something, then immediately after you must activate, not something else!

my understanding here is that the ship passes its turn, once, allowing an enemy to activate before it, before it continues the turn it was supposed to do.

Much more tight for this explanation, but very strategic

There is no third option or need for it. The card would already mention that you must activate this ship next. Like it does for Raddus preventing him to play the ship first. If you are forced to activate/not activate something a card mentions it, like Raddus and Pryce. Strategic Advisor does not mention your next activation, because it doesent matter. When it is your ship turn to activate (this is every single turn your large ship has not yet activated), he can exhaust this card and skip the turn. You are given the window, when it is your ship turn to activate (this is every single turn your large ship has not yet activated), the cost exhausting the card. That is all you need. Once your opponent begin his turn, the card effect is over. Once their new turn is over, you get to play which ever ship you want. You cant just make up options in your mind without card text supporting it. The only debate is about whats on the text when ever this can be used when the large ship has already activated or not, to me its obvious that it cannot, because in order for the ship this upgrade is on to be his turn to activate, it can only mean any turn when he has yet to be activated.

To avoid useless drama again like in the past, going for the plain text should always be paramount, until dev says otherwise. The rule book says upgrade cards you means the ship its attached on. The card still works and does not contradict this. Unless FFG give us word on a different ruling on this, this is all that matters for now. That it works and follows the rule book.

But we have clear irrefutable proof that "you" is also a term for the player when written on upgrade cards.

So no its not "obvious" the card cannot be used if the ship has activated.

As an FYI, the TO at FFG Regionals rules that Strategic Advisor is only eligible to be used if on a ship that has not yet activated.

1 hour ago, RobertK said:

As an FYI, the TO at FFG Regionals rules that Strategic Advisor is only eligible to be used if on a ship that has not yet activated.

Makes the most sense, nothing in the card contradict the rule book to begin with. Just because another card does, doesent mean all the cards saying You now contradicts the rule book.

22 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

But we have clear irrefutable proof that "you" is also a term for the player when written on upgrade cards.

So no its not "obvious" the card cannot be used if the ship has activated.

There will be a new rules question thread that is going to dispute your first sentence. However, too many beers before the SuperBowl relegates this until tomorrow (Unless a new Champion emerges. LOL).

2 hours ago, RobertK said:

As an FYI, the TO at FFG Regionals rules that Strategic Advisor is only eligible to be used if on a ship that has not yet activated.

Thank you for reporting this. As far as I'm concerned this is the best current indication of intent we have, since I think the text itself really doesn't lean strongly one way or the other, so this will be the interpretation I recommend to my local group.

Worth noting that this is not the final or official word on it though. It's usually not Worthington FFG III himself TOing at FFG tourneys.

On 04/02/2018 at 6:41 AM, RobertK said:

As an FYI, the TO at FFG Regionals rules that Strategic Advisor is only eligible to be used if on a ship that has not yet activated.

did the TO also rule whether another friendly ship can activate right after SA is used(and the enemy has activated one of his), or must be the same SA ship?

After i have the card, and read it over and over again, i have to admit, that the wording is really really bad. And i can understand the discussion way more, when you understand both sides from this discussion (you as player or you as ship).

It could even be that the ship is meant. But in this case a wording like: "before you activate" or "after you activate, you can exhaust this card and you become unactivate" would be WAY better are way more clear.

Using the you combined with turn really messed it up. Same as Bail Organa with if you are first player.

This means we can discuss all day, it will not change anything. Only the dev (or devs) who made this card can say what he meant with the wording.