I really cannot see how some can make it this complicated (no wonder the dev did't thought about it, no one is this twisted as some gamers ).

Quote

Ship Phase
During this phase, the first player activates one of his ships. Then the second player activates one of his own ships. Players continue taking turns in this manner until all ships have been activated.
• Players cannot activate ships that have already been activated.
• If a player has no unactivated ships remaining, he must pass his turn for the rest of the phase.
Related Topics: First Player, Round, Ship Activation

In this phase the Advisor is triggering. At the time the player should decide what ship he want to activate. He does not has to choose a ship, he just activate one.
So you do not have to say: i would like to activate the ISD, but before i do i use the adisor.
You are just in the ship phase, it is your turn to activate a ship, and instead you just use the adisor.

There is no difference if the ship with the advisor is already activated or not. The card STILL WORKS. If not there would be way more problems with other cards. And you do not have to try to activate the ship with the adivsor. You just say i pass.

I really dont know why some of you want to make it this complicated. There is really no need for it.

22 minutes ago, Tokra said:

I really cannot see how some can make it this complicated (no wonder the dev did't thought about it, no one is this twisted as some gamers ).

[...]

I really dont know why some of you want to make it this complicated. There is really no need for it.

If everyone agreed, there would be no need. But we/they don't, so there is a need to:

1. wait for word from FFG; and
2. in the meantime, analyse the finer details to see if we can come to some sort of rules-backed consensus.

For the record, I am inclined to agree with your interpretation of how the card should be played. But I do not agree with your assessment that this is so clear-cut that there is no need to back up this interpretation with actual rules.

18 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

If everyone agreed, there would be no need. But we/they don't, so there is a need to:

1. wait for word from FFG; and
2. in the meantime, analyse the finer details to see if we can come to some sort of rules-backed consensus.

For the record, I am inclined to agree with your interpretation of how the card should be played. But I do not agree with your assessment that this is so clear-cut that there is no need to back up this interpretation with actual rules.

Agreed.

One way is to examine the wording of the upgrade cards that are triggered at times other than when the ship on which they are equipped is active. From (my sadly imperfect) memory I think you will find that if an upgrade card is triggered in the activation of another ship/squadron, the wording on the card will include "friendly ship" or "friendly squadron". This is not the case with the Strategic Adviser card. Do any others have such wording missing?

10 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Does any of this have any basis in RRG, FAQ, or the tourney regs?

Admiral Raddus : Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly ship."

No ships are in play, the Admiral is not in play therefore it cannot be a reference to ownership of a ship in play. It is instead permission to do something when the trigger situation is valid. so yes I'd say it has basis for validity.

3 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

Admiral Raddus : Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly ship."

No ships are in play, the Admiral is not in play therefore it cannot be a reference to ownership of a ship in play. It is instead permission to do something when the trigger situation is valid. so yes I'd say it has basis for validity.

Sorry but:

Q: During Setup, can ships and squadrons resolve card effects
before they have been deployed?
A: Yes. During Setup, ships and squadrons that have not yet
been deployed are in play, and their ship, squadron, and
upgrade cards are active, unless that ship or squadron has
been destroyed or set aside.

To me that really read like Raddus' ship may set aside something.

Fair enough, I mean this is the place to ask questions no?

I mean we we're in wave 4 I think before someone questioned Intel Officers timing and use, and we all found we had been making an incorrect assumption on its usage.

My point is upgrades as stated in the RRG are optional, all of them, so why word any card with a choice on it like "you may" Why does it not simply say on Tractor beams for example, "When you activate, exhaust this card etc etc." Why say "you may" at all? we already know they are optional. So if they have taken the time to word a card with a choice of usage is it such a stretch to see that wording as being a permissior for use at the correct trigger?

The ship does make an attack, the ship makes a maneuver, the ship activates squadrons, that is the way the game is designed for clarity I accept that and I'm not arguing against that. All i'm saying is are we right? is "when you activate." the exact same thing as "you may exhaust" one is clearly defined the other can just as easily be a reference to the player him/herself taking a physical action to reach down an move an upgrade card 90 degrees and resolve the card text.

It likely was released this way to make an FAQ entry for after due consideration. From a simple cost analysis and balance guess, I would agree with the earlier post. it will probably not be allowed to use if the ship is activated. This also adds a bit more strategic choice to construction and play.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

11 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Does any of this have any basis in RRG, FAQ, or the tourney regs?

Admiral Raddus : Before deploying fleets, you may set aside 1 other friendly ship."

No ships are in play, the Admiral is not in play therefore it cannot be a reference to ownership of a ship in play. It is instead permission to do something when the trigger situation is valid. so yes I'd say it has basis for validity.

So no, it's just made up.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

8 hours ago, slasher956 said:

so after 3 pages we have discovered that' you' on an upgrade card mean ship except for when it doesnt, and we dont know when it doesnt because we havent been told yet.

Yep. Has someone submitted Wave 7 questions to FFG? We have quite a few that could use ironing out:

• This, Strat Advisor
• Ordnance Pods (is it possibly FFG only meant 1 enemy squad max can be attacked?)
• Raid tokens (Is dial usable when Raid token removed by command token? We pretty much agree, yes)
• There has to be more?

RRG Page 13 - "Upgrade Cards"

"On upgrade card effects, the term 'you' refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to."

So, if the card were meant to be used only when the ship it was equipped to activated, the card would have read:

"When you activate, you may exhaust..."

Simply put, "your turn" and "you" mean entirely different things.

1 hour ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

RRG Page 13 - "Upgrade Cards"

"On upgrade card effects, the term 'you' refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to."

So, if the card were meant to be used only when the ship it was equipped to activated, the card would have read:

"When you activate, you may exhaust..."

Simply put, "your turn" and "you" mean entirely different things.

It cannot be that way. That's the problem. You're taking words too literally when they were used there just cause they are the optimal choice in order to clarify how the rules works.

The rules cannot say "ships take turns to activate" cause further clarification would be needed in order to avoid several activation from the same fleet.

If Strat Advisor triggered "when you activate" its own purpose would be canceled by its own trigger.

They could write "before you activate" though.

They also write "may" being not needed to avoid future clarifications.

IMHO as long as turn is not defined "when is your turn to activate" has the same value as "it is your turn to die". It is just pointing a time frame equivalent to "when you are going to x". As "players take turns" just means "players alternate/rotate". It happens they chose a periphrastic way that make us think players are really taking something when they don't. Players alternate that's all, ships also do it due to the fact that after one ship's activation another come, following their owner's sequence of play.

1 hour ago, Thraug said:

Yep. Has someone submitted Wave 7 questions to FFG? We have quite a few that could use ironing out:

• This, Strat Advisor
• Ordnance Pods (is it possibly FFG only meant 1 enemy squad max can be attacked?)
• Raid tokens (Is dial usable when Raid token removed by command token? We pretty much agree, yes)
• There has to be more?

Yes. He's called @Drasnighta

38 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

If Strat Advisor triggered "when you activate" its own purpose would be canceled by its own trigger.

They could write "before you activate" though.

Exactly!

20 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Yes. He's called @Drasnighta

Done more than that, too

18 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Exactly!

They did it... In some way.

On 1/22/2018 at 4:15 PM, Drasnighta said:

Done more than that, too

I assume no reply yet? You would think they could reply quickly, knowing how the intentions of their own cards? Boy, they can really make it difficult to play new wave correctly .

1 minute ago, Thraug said:

I assume no reply yet? You would think they could reply quickly, knowing how the intentions of their own cards? Boy, they can really make it difficult to play new wave correctly .

There will be fanfare when/if I do get a reply.

In the meantime, I've been working on a World Cup FAQ, which would double as my Local Tournament (Hothgary) FAQ...

... But 4 hours of sleep in 3 days has kept me from committing to publish. I'm going to get a good few more hours today thanks to a very cheap bottle of Alberta Premium and then look at what I've written to make sure its not crazytimes.

Who are we kidding. Its effing crazytimes.

"You" has always been Exceptionally poor wording in the rules on FFG's part. They should have used "this ship" all the way form the start of Xwing and Armada.

Beyond poor.

13 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

"You" has always been Exceptionally poor wording in the rules on FFG's part. They should have used "this ship" all the way form the start of Xwing and Armada.

Beyond poor.

Although I generally agree that it would have been preferable, in FFG's defense that wording comes with its own set of issues (aside from the obvious one, namely the need for extra space on already-crowded cards).

8 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Although I generally agree that it would have been preferable, in FFG's defense that wording comes with its own set of issues (aside from the obvious one, namely the need for extra space on already-crowded cards).

I don't see them. Please elaborate.

"This card/ship" is also the terminology used in Magic testing. (Which, has far greater rules specificity.)

On 1/22/2018 at 7:49 AM, Don Henderson fan club said:

Agreed.

One way is to examine the wording of the upgrade cards that are triggered at times other than when the ship on which they are equipped is active. From (my sadly imperfect) memory I think you will find that if an upgrade card is triggered in the activation of another ship/squadron, the wording on the card will include "friendly ship" or "friendly squadron". This is not the case with the Strategic Adviser card. Do any others have such wording missing?

This type of stuff is why I hate the rules forum.

On 22.1.2018 at 6:14 PM, TheEasternKing said:

Fair enough, I mean this is the place to ask questions no?

I mean we we're in wave 4 I think before someone questioned Intel Officers timing and use, and we all found we had been making an incorrect assumption on its usage.

My point is upgrades as stated in the RRG are optional, all of them, so why word any card with a choice on it like "you may" Why does it not simply say on Tractor beams for example, "When you activate, exhaust this card etc etc." Why say "you may" at all? we already know they are optional. So if they have taken the time to word a card with a choice of usage is it such a stretch to see that wording as being a permissior for use at the correct trigger?

The ship does make an attack, the ship makes a maneuver, the ship activates squadrons, that is the way the game is designed for clarity I accept that and I'm not arguing against that. All i'm saying is are we right? is "when you activate." the exact same thing as "you may exhaust" one is clearly defined the other can just as easily be a reference to the player him/herself taking a physical action to reach down an move an upgrade card 90 degrees and resolve the card text.

Because the dev team wanted to be smart and turn the normal rules around. Instead of all effects are mandatory unless otherwise said (like it is on all other games i know). They made it to all upgrade card effects are optional, unless otherwise said.

Maybe they did it this way, because all other do it the other way around . Who knows. But it is (as you always say) illogical, and cause more problems this way. Or maybe there is another reason as well for it (one that we don't know, at least i don't know any reason for it).
It would have been way easier if they would have made it the other way around. Many rule questions would not have been there.

But the rules are the way they are right now, and sometimes the dev seem to forget it when they make new cards. If they want an effect as mandatory, they need the word "must" for it. But not for squadrons. For these you need the word "may" if you want it optional.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't see them. Please elaborate.

"This card/ship" is also the terminology used in Magic testing. (Which, has far greater rules specificity.)

May be. But at 47 reading those cards get is getting harder because of the small text.

'You' has always meant something very specific in FFG rules. There's no point bleating about it now.

4 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I don't see them. Please elaborate.

With all due respect (and I sincerely mean this - please do not take this as a personal dismissal), I do not intend to engage in lengthy discussions on how the rules of Armada should have been written. It's not that I don't have my views on the subject - but I find that my time and energy is better spent addressing the rules as they are.

1 hour ago, emsgoof said:

This type of stuff is why I hate the rules forum.

I don't blame you. We can be obsessive, dismissive, gruff, pedantic, and waste countless hours on heated academic discussion focused on the most trivial details of the most inane subject-matters.

Ultimately, though, and unpleasant as interacting with us may be... we're here to help. Because we want to.