Strategic Advisor

By The Jabbawookie, in Star Wars: Armada

Enjoyed reading all the thoughts thus far. There are too many that I want to comment on, so take this as my consideration of the card and the conversation.

1) This is obvious, but the cost of the cards is 4 + attack effectiveness, defense effectiveness, or effectiveness through flexibility, all of which are bestowed in the officer slot.

1a)This means that on offense, you are betting that an extra activation will net you more than, for example, restricting token usage (Intel Officer). On defense, you are betting that the extra activation will net you more than such things as dice manipulation or hit negation (Lando/Derlin). However, most commonly, you are betting that activations will gain you more than flexibility that is often provided in dial/token management but can also offer a number of other benefits.

1b) An example of the opportunity cost is that while you may gain an activation and thereby be able to shoot at a ship you are otherwise unable to shoot, you also may lose the ability to speed away or maneuver to better get a double arc.

2) This card is a wager. If your opponent takes it, you have essentially canceled one another out. If your opponent has a much greater number of flotillas and is, therefore, able to simply activate another flotilla in response to your large ship, then you gain much less than if they must activate a more expensive ship into your area of attack. However, it can also mean the difference between getting no shot AND being shot at on the one hand or not being shot AND getting to shoot on the other.

3) All of this means that, IMO, this cards does not directly help 1+4 type fleets directly. It does make one of the activations cheaper or add another activation at a cheap price (4 points plus less effective power attack), but you already were doing that. Of course, we then must ask who it helps and who it hurts.

3a) This does significantly not hurt 1+x lists when the 1 is a large ship. They are likely to have enough activations that Mon Cal or ISD still gets its attack. They may lose the effectiveness of one activation, but more often than not that is a flotilla in these lists.

3b) This hurts MSU lists that rely on a number of smaller attacks but do not have a single heavy lifter. Goldfish lists or Raider/Arquitan lists lose an attack on a large ship and lose the ability for one ship to avoid getting shot at...per turn. They don't have the benefit of throwing away another flotillas activation because they rely on every activation making a small attack.

3c) This hurts 1+4 or 2+3 lists in which the heavy hitting ship is not a large base. This would include ships with strong attacks in small ships (Demo or MC30s for example) or in bomber lists (at least those which don't rely on a large based squadron pusher). Essentially, they must consider whether or not to add another flotilla. While this might cancel out Strategic Adviser, it costs 18-23 points bare. That is a significant cost, especially when even the possibility of this card, rather than its actuality, in an opponents list might force those 18-23 points.

Conclusion: In essence, this card forces 1+4 (non large base)/2+3 lists to double down and purchase another flotilla or risk out activation/losing first-last.

Edit: Please critique and nuance this as these are initial thoughts. I hope to revise and more clearly formulate them as we converse.

Edited by ryanabt
5 minutes ago, ryanabt said:

3c) This hurts 1+4 or 2+3 lists in which the heavy hitting ship is not a large base. This would include ships with strong attacks in small ships (Demo or MC30s for example) or in bomber lists (at least those which don't rely on a large based squadron pusher). Essentially, they must consider whether or not to add another flotilla. While this might cancel out Strategic Adviser, it costs 18-23 points bare. That is a significant cost, especially when even the possibility of this card, rather than its actuality, in an opponents list might force those 18-23 points.

Conclusion: In essence, this card forces 1+4 (non large base)/2+3 lists to double down and purchase another flotilla or risk out activation/losing first-last.

Or add a Strategic Adviser. Yes, it's a potential sacrifice, but it cancels out the opponent's copy in the mirror match and still gives an additional edge vs MSU, all while saving 14-19 points. SFO is great but by no means mandatory, IO is good but pricey; I still like Tua better for the ISD1, but otherwise it seems to be a pretty easy call.

2 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Or add a Strategic Adviser. Yes, it's a potential sacrifice, but it cancels out the opponent's copy in the mirror match and still gives an additional edge vs MSU, all while saving 14-19 points. SFO is great but by no means mandatory, IO is good but pricey; I still like Tua better for the ISD1, but otherwise it seems to be a pretty easy call.

Both 3c and my conclusion assume no large ship. While most 1+4 are large ship, some rely on bombing or Demo.

7 minutes ago, ryanabt said:


Conclusion: In essence, this card forces 1+4 (non large base)/2+3 lists to double down and purchase another flotilla or risk out activation/losing first-last.

All true for what will happen early in the game but think about turns 4-6 when some intense combat has occurred and some ships are no more.

A fleet of 3-4 combat ships including a Strat Adviser on the largest may be in a lot stronger position if the big ship is still alive and some enemy flotillas are not. Then rather than equalising out the activations the Strat Adviser has tipped the advantage the other way.

1 minute ago, Mad Cat said:

All true for what will happen early in the game but think about turns 4-6 when some intense combat has occurred and some ships are no more.

A fleet of 3-4 combat ships including a Strat Adviser on the largest may be in a lot stronger position if the big ship is still alive and some enemy flotillas are not. Then rather than equalising out the activations the Strat Adviser has tipped the advantage the other way.

Thank you! This is important analysis.

2 hours ago, Truthiness said:

There are sooooo many great officers that SA is hardly any auto-include. Take, for example, an ISD-I Avenger, which, despite the introduction of the Kuat, remains the best place for BT/Avenger. Are you good enough to get the Pryce timing right that you don't need SA? Or would you rather have Tua for ECM? Would you rather have the protection from Slicers that SFO offers? There's a lot of competition for the slot, which is what makes the upgrade so interesting to me. I struggle with including it constantly.

SA is still the best in that case for BTA. Last/first OR forcing your opponent to move into you. You don't need Pryce since BTA functions on last/first alrge bid. You don't need Tua if the big threat is dead. Slicers is in such low numbers there is no point considering it a threat to BTA, and BT only needs a token.

Like @ovinomanc3r said, if you're already going hard into the activation game, SA only helps that. It doesn't provide a counter to other high activation fleets and it doesn't deal with the flotilla spam. It puts you on par or puts you way over the top. So any fleet that already runs 3 flotillas and a large ship get a huge buff, which includes BTA Relay and Ackbar80s.

But as I already stated, I don't think SA will be a huge deal. People will realize they are losing the opportunity cost when they run into another SA.

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Agreed. SA is an auto include at 4 points despite taking the officer slot.

...

But ironically, with every large ship taking SA, they become worthless.

Worthless auto-includes.

Armada must really be dead.

I think some folks are drowning in their hyperbole. The activation game is certainly part of it all, but it's not the 'be all/end all'. It's mostly relevant in turn 2 (or 3 depending on speeds), but before and afterwards it becomes less valuable to have the edge in.

And this card only makes things worse

Imperial II 120 • Admiral Sloane 24 Strategic Adviser 4 • Boarding Troopers 3 • Electronic Countermeasures 7 • Leading Shots 4 • XI7 Turbolasers 6 • Avenger 5

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Maarek Stele 21 Colonel Jendon 20 Saber Squadron 12 Valen Rudor 13 Zertik Strom 15 Ciena Ree 17 TIE Fighter Squadron 8

Total 398

22w3yf.jpg via Imgflip Meme Generator

PASS RULE LIKE IN IMPERIAL ASSAULT WHY IS THAT SO HARD???

Edited by X Wing Nut

You're 98 pts over the limit according to your own calculations :ph34r:

30 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

You're 98 pts over the limit according to your own calculations :ph34r:

fixed I was blinded buy rage and hit 4 instead of 3 :P

5 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

fixed I was blinded buy rage and hit 4 instead of 3 :P

Drop the plain TIE. You've 7 squads anyway.

You now have a fleet that can reliably leverage activation advantage and last/first with BTA.

In those cases where you don't get 1st, you have the tools to win as 2nd player.

Prosper.

3 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

And this card only makes things worse

Imperial II 120 • Admiral Sloane 24 Strategic Adviser 4 • Boarding Troopers 3 • Electronic Countermeasures 7 • Leading Shots 4 • XI7 Turbolasers 6 • Avenger 5

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Maarek Stele 21 Colonel Jendon 20 Saber Squadron 12 Valen Rudor 13 Zertik Strom 15 Ciena Ree 17 TIE Fighter Squadron 8

Total 398

22w3yf.jpg via Imgflip Meme Generator

PASS RULE LIKE IN IMPERIAL ASSAULT WHY IS THAT SO HARD???

I'm not calling it like Worlds, but I'm having the dreadful premonition this will come to pass.

The boy is not to be trained.

18 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm not calling it like Worlds, but I'm having the dreadful premonition this will come to pass.

The boy is not to be trained.

I will take him as my Padawan learner...

Just now, Green Knight said:

I will take him as my Padawan learner...

I sense much fear in him.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

I sense much fear in him.

Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.

OMG, FFG is turning us all to the Dark Side!!!

Worse is relative.

i mean, if you were already out activated by 1+5, then 1+6 is a waste of a good officer slot.

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.

OMG, FFG is turning us all to the Dark Side!!!

If only.

The activation game is still one that greatly favors Rebels (cheaper flotillas, cheaper large ships with officer slots, and cheaper ships all round).

FFG, I see what's in your mind!

giphy.gif

6 hours ago, Mikael Hasselstein said:

Worthless auto-includes.

Armada must really be dead.

I think some folks are drowning in their hyperbole. The activation game is certainly part of it all, but it's not the 'be all/end all'. It's mostly relevant in turn 2 (or 3 depending on speeds), but before and afterwards it becomes less valuable to have the edge in.

It's not hyperbole. Getting another activation for 4 points is literally the best thing you can do. For any defensive officer you may take, SA it better because you delay and don't take damage for a round. For any offensive officer you may take, SA is better because you delay and your opponent moves into range granting you an additional round of firepower you normally wouldn't have. This is in a vacuum obviously.

In a real game however, SA is worthless if your opponent has it as well. You've wasted your officer, but so have they. There is no benefit to SA if everyone wants to take it, and since Wave 7 is all about large ships with multiple large ship upgrades, I'd expect a lot of people will be grabbing SA.

And believing activations only matter on the early part of the game is incorrect. Start playing quality, high activation fleets and you'll understand. None of that 1+4 ****.

6 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

PASS RULE LIKE IN IMPERIAL ASSAULT WHY IS THAT SO HARD???

Because, as has been said a hundred times, the game would devolve into nothing but big ships. Seen it, played it, have no interest in 3x ISD for eternity.

some-ones already said it... but it beares repeating.....

Strat Advisor cant skip an activation if he's already been exhausted....well come back the MS1-Ion Canon!!!

edit - credit goes to @Coldhands

Edited by slasher956
32 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Because, as has been said a hundred times, the game would devolve into nothing but big ships. Seen it, played it, have no interest in 3x ISD for eternity.

I think the big difference keeping this from working is the fact that in IA you swap initiative each round. Armada doesn't do that.

A pass rule would likely require a whole new set of objectives as well that were more win condition focused than deployment advantage focused.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

In a real game however, SA is worthless if your opponent has it as well. You've wasted your officer, but so have they. There is no benefit to SA if everyone wants to take it, and since Wave 7 is all about large ships with multiple large ship upgrades, I'd expect a lot of people will be grabbing SA.

I mostly agree with this, but short of being @GiledPallaeon or me running insane double Rebel Larges, Bail/Pryce exist too. As does Raymus Antilles, who's still REALLY good on Rebel larges. Walex Blissex, too, especially for the MC75. There's options there, is all. Plus if you go with @Truthiness 's article example of 1 large with Raddus, I don't need him there, either.

I do agree that large v large if both people take it, sure, it's cancelled. But if I'm facing an MSU list, it's a great 4 points. If I'm facing 2+3, same. And I'm also contrary enough to know that I'm gonna try some MSU dumbness for a bit, because those white whales don't hunt themselves....

Personally, I plan on using it to turn my 4 activation fleets into "5." I can put more of those quality activations in there like you're saying (and that I also want!) without needing to scrap 18 points together to be competitive against 7 ship MSU.

Basically I agree with you, but I'm not sure we've seen the full death of MSU or squads, yet. This is just another option to fight against those builds IMO.

8 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

And this card only makes things worse

Imperial II 120 • Admiral Sloane 24 Strategic Adviser 4 • Boarding Troopers 3 • Electronic Countermeasures 7 • Leading Shots 4 • XI7 Turbolasers 6 • Avenger 5

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23 • Comms Net 2

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Gozanti Cruisers 23

Maarek Stele 21 Colonel Jendon 20 Saber Squadron 12 Valen Rudor 13 Zertik Strom 15 Ciena Ree 17 TIE Fighter Squadron 8

Total 398

22w3yf.jpg via Imgflip Meme Generator

PASS RULE LIKE IN IMPERIAL ASSAULT WHY IS THAT SO HARD???

I would be curious to see what a double cymooon with vader could do to this. With the amount of red dice it throws out with good rerolls it should be able to knock out that ISD before it gets close enough.

34 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I mostly agree with this, but short of being @GiledPallaeon or me running insane double Rebel Larges, Bail/Pryce exist too. As does Raymus Antilles, who's still REALLY good on Rebel larges. Walex Blissex, too, especially for the MC75. There's options there, is all. Plus if you go with @Truthiness 's article example of 1 large with Raddus, I don't need him there, either.

I do agree that large v large if both people take it, sure, it's cancelled. But if I'm facing an MSU list, it's a great 4 points. If I'm facing 2+3, same. And I'm also contrary enough to know that I'm gonna try some MSU dumbness for a bit, because those white whales don't hunt themselves....

Personally, I plan on using it to turn my 4 activation fleets into "5." I can put more of those quality activations in there like you're saying (and that I also want!) without needing to scrap 18 points together to be competitive against 7 ship MSU.

Basically I agree with you, but I'm not sure we've seen the full death of MSU or squads, yet. This is just another option to fight against those builds IMO.

Yea that's what I'm trying to stress about SA. In a vacuum, like when you design your fleet, SA is one of the best officers you can take on a large ship. But I don't think that advantage will translate well into a tournament setting.

It's a really weird paradigm. You take SA to get an activation so it's offensive against MSU, but defensive against another SA since it negates it. But if you don't take it and face another SA, the officer you grabbed has the potential to be useless for the round before engagement. Like a Raymus squad pusher and your opponent delays you so your squad activation is weak or ineffective.

I also expect the meta to swing towards large ships. We have 2 new large ship commanders. 3 or 4 large ship upgrades. SA will help against the 2+3 carrier fleets since one of the most effective ways to deal with squads it to force a dead squad activation by having more activations. And then there is Bail and Pryce, who situationally can be more effective than SA.

It's a really cool balancing act. Should be a good meta moving forward.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

It's not hyperbole. Getting another activation for 4 points is literally the best thing you can do. For any defensive officer you may take, SA it better because you delay and don't take damage for a round. For any offensive officer you may take, SA is better because you delay and your opponent moves into range granting you an additional round of firepower you normally wouldn't have. This is in a vacuum obviously.

In a real game however, SA is worthless if your opponent has it as well. You've wasted your officer, but so have they. There is no benefit to SA if everyone wants to take it, and since Wave 7 is all about large ships with multiple large ship upgrades, I'd expect a lot of people will be grabbing SA.

And believing activations only matter on the early part of the game is incorrect. Start playing quality, high activation fleets and you'll understand. None of that 1+4 ****.

Yes, I understand the concept of the Prisoner's Dilemma , in which both parties attempting to pursue their best interests in a non-cooperative game arrive at a sub-optimal outcome. However, Armada is a zero-sum game, and so the sub-optimal outcome is irrelevant. Furthermore, the list-building aspect of Armada is zero-sum strategic, in that any structural tendency of the opponent to predictably do any particular thing (such as choose Strategic Advisor) become a weakness.

But aside from that it is hyperbole. Not everyone is going to take Strategic Advisor, just like not everyone is playing GH2+3, just like not everyone is flying SloVenger lists, despite the success rates of those lists (in the proper hands).

Also, what makes you believe that I don't play quality high-activation fleets? Just because your experiences have led you to certain conclusions does not mean that your conclusions are objectively true and the only truth that experience can lead to. From the flip-side, I've enjoyed plenty of success against high-activation lists with low-activation lists including big bruisers.