Hey guys I just posted a battle report over in the battle report forum. I have played against KariThorn more than half a dozen times and it stomps me every time.

198/200

Kari Wraithstalker [32] 1x1
Fortunas Dice [6]
Total Unit Cost: 38

Lord Hawthorne [34] 1x1
Reaping Blade [4]
Sweeping Strikes [5]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Oathsworn Cavalry [34] 2x2 (deployed 4-wide)
Wind Rune [6]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 44

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2 (deployed 4-wide)
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 33

Spearmen [40] 3x2
Total Unit Cost: 40

As I said in the battle report "I have no idea what to do against this list. Everything is a threat. Every unit is able to decimate my army if left unchecked but they all have such great mobility I need multiple units to pin even a single one down, leaving the others to flank me."

In the end I lost 98-200 which is my best performance yet.

Any advice would be great.

Thanks!

Same player beating you or have multiple people played you with this list?

6 minutes ago, flightmaster101 said:

Same player beating you or have multiple people played you with this list?

This exact list is one player but there is another human player in our group who was running something similar (remove the spears and archers and replace with more cav) that also destroys me.

I've had difficulty against similar lists as Waiqar.

Your deployment is a very important thing to focus on. How you move your units in response to your opponents too. Daqan are pretty quick compared to Waiqar and Kari is a royal b**$#.

I have a version of this list where I remove the 3x2 Spearman (and Hawthorne's upgrades) and add 3x Rune Golems. I also don't run wind rune on the Cav (I run tempered + raven tabards) -- but Wind Rune may not be a bad idea since they can get stuck often and can't shift. I also call it KariThorne

Kari Wraithstalker [32] 1x1
Fortunas Dice [6]
Total Unit Cost: 38

Lord Hawthorne [34] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 34

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Total Unit Cost: 33

Oathsworn Cavalry [34] 2x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Raven Tabards [2]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Rune Golems [17] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 17

Rune Golems [17] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 17

Rune Golems [17] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 17

I think you really need to use terrain to your advantage to fend off the 4x1 Cav (possibly the archers too -- if you can keep them from getting in range). If you can get a few single CL's out front to intercept (and turn) the CAV on impact, that would help. Having a 2x1 archer blight the crap out of the CAV is also useful -- every blight is a 4-threat die removed. So to be clear -- archers need to be near their CAV. They really don't want to get blighted.

Are you able to move up late to deathcaller Kari? She always moves early in initiative, so she can move up but still be out of range of your Reanimates. If you threaten with a 7init 3-march followed by the blight/deathcaller, you can potentially double tap her in an opening round, making it very scary for her in the next. She will likely snipe your deathcaller the following round however, but now she's only one wound away from death.

I think you may want to incorporate a small unit of death knights to throw at his elven archers. You need to get them engaged in melee, and they'll crumble. I'm not sure the two 2x1 CLs with simultaneous orders help a lot against this list. Also, any time I've fought Ardus with this I usually insta-gib him on the first hit with the CAV or archers it feels like.

Anyway, hopefully I'll have some more ideas for you (since I should experience what beats this)

Funny, I had walked away from this list for awhile to experiment with other things and just picked it back up today and stomped with it again, had been contemplating posting about how I think it’s one of the strongest lists available. I run it slightly differently however:

Kari Wraithstalker [32] 1x1
Wraith Step [1]
Total Unit Cost: 33

Lord Hawthorne [34] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 34

Oathsworn Cavalry [46] 3x2
Total Unit Cost: 46

Spearmen [40] 3x2
Lance Corporal [6]
Shield Wall [5]
Total Unit Cost: 51

Deepwood Archers [30] 4x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 36

keep my heroes light so they aren’t priorities but still contribute handily. To big threats with the Cav and Spears, and a devastating archer support that can still shoot if you charge it.

Definitely non without its flaws and it’s not unbeatable, but out of everything I have played in this game this is still my favorite and best Army overall.

PS: I’ve never actually used wraithstep on Kari, just a 1pt bid hasn’t been doing much for me so I figured it’d see if it ever came in hand, ie charged by DK.

11 minutes ago, jcshep19 said:

Funny, I had walked away from this list for awhile to experiment with other things and just picked it back up today and stomped with it again, had been contemplating posting about how I think it’s one of the strongest lists available. I run it slightly differently however:

I think you are really missing out on F-Dice on Kari. Makes her ranged attack super deadly and give great battlefield control.

1 hour ago, Glucose98 said:

I think you really need to use terrain to your advantage to fend off the 4x1 Cav (possibly the archers too -- if you can keep them from getting in range). If you can get a few single CL's out front to intercept (and turn) the CAV on impact, that would help. Having a 2x1 archer blight the crap out of the CAV is also useful -- every blight is a 4-threat die removed. So to be clear -- archers need to be near their CAV. They really don't want to get blighted.

Everyone keeps telling me to use terrain to beat the cav but with wind rune I don't feel like it helps. The cav don't have to slow down and turn around the terrain, they don't have to aim their banks and possibly end up at a bad angle. They just go straight on late in the round, wind rune around the terrain and end up facing whichever direction is ideal with the reform. Its also very annoying when a 4 wide unit with wind rune reforms early in the turn and just rotates out of the way of your charging unit (but that is a different problem).

1 hour ago, Glucose98 said:

Are you able to move up late to deathcaller Kari? She always moves early in initiative, so she can move up but still be out of range of your Reanimates. If you threaten with a 7init 3-march followed by the blight/deathcaller, you can potentially double tap her in an opening round, making it very scary for her in the next. She will likely snipe your deathcaller the following round however, but now she's only one wound away from death.

I think you may want to incorporate a small unit of death knights to throw at his elven archers. You need to get them engaged in melee, and they'll crumble. I'm not sure the two 2x1 CLs with simultaneous orders help a lot against this list. Also, any time I've fought Ardus with this I usually insta-gib him on the first hit with the CAV or archers it feels like.

I can do a late move to death caller Kari, using this with metered march is one of my favorite combos. At most you can have 2 blue runes in a turn which half kills Kari. Then next turn she uses F-Dice at kill the deathcaller at int 2 and thats the end of that. The cav are normally near Kari to then charge the reanimates. I could do 2 deathcaller blocks and HOPE for the 2 blues on the turn they move into range but that is a big chunk of my army to kill a single model.

I want to use more death knights, that is a good idea. I have been running them in big groups but they cost lots of points. Do you rate the 2x1 size?

I'm getting better with ardus. You used to die without do anything at all but these days I can at least get him into combat and attack one or twice. It is true that just about everything in the list will drop him if he ends up in a remotely bad position.

@Qark

F dice really is awesome on Kari, I just can’t come up with 6 points (5 points, since wraithstep is just filler for me) to run it. I’d rather just use her natural rerolls and have a slightly less efficient Kari than sacrifice something like Shieldwall on the spearmen.

I can attest a 2x2 of DK with reaping blade can be an incredible hero and oathsworn killer for 46 pts. Even better with MoI at 51.

You could also try two 2x1’s, one with reaping blade, one with Obcasiums, and Rank, but that’s 65 pts total, and they go down a lot quicker than you might think.

A few options could work. An older build would be dual deathblighters with blockers, it would let you knock out both heroes pretty fast, but with the Daqan builds mobility that could be tricky. A maro swamp would work as well but again mobility hurts that strategy.

I go to this build a lot but what I would suggest is Ardus with deaths grasp and fury, and running next to a 3x2 death knight duskblade/CI. This combo is devastating when facing Daqan and with raven taberds you actually win most initiative games (unless they run lance corporal). For the other 100 points just do CI archers and blocker lancers.

Deathknights - 2x3 with Raven Tabards and Obcasiums Gauntlet. If you can get close to the enemy on the first turn you can then charge on initiative 2 next round for a range 2 charge and one shot any hero pretty much.

Edit: Especially if you have column tactics on, however I've started to not rely on Column Tactics now myself and spend the points elsewhere as the unit is already expensive enough!

After looking over all the responses, I feel like the right answer is adding some Deathknights to your list. They are super tanky and can really disrupt those elven archers.

So I'm confused, how are the archers and Cavalry deployed in a 4X1? I thought the only option was a 2X2?

I'm new to the game so maybe I missed an important rule?

8 minutes ago, chaotic_vortex said:

So I'm confused, how are the archers and Cavalry deployed in a 4X1? I thought the only option was a 2X2?

I'm new to the game so maybe I missed an important rule?

Hawthorne's standalone ability.

7 minutes ago, chaotic_vortex said:

So I'm confused, how are the archers and Cavalry deployed in a 4X1? I thought the only option was a 2X2?

I'm new to the game so maybe I missed an important rule?

Lord Hawthorne has an ability called "Lessons of Seragart" that allows you to reconfigure trays, in much the same way as Kari lets you take a Latari unit in the first place! The two together is currently the only way to get a ranged unit with 4 Threat, which is super deadly.

Last years worlds champ had a list, which was basically tailored to counter this list. It boils down to lots of roadblocks and a few archers.

Thoughts on this?

1 hour ago, Qark said:

Thoughts on this?

199/200

Ardus IxErebus [37] 1x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Ardus Fury [1]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Reanimates [35] 3x2
Deathcaller [5]
Metered March [2]

Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 53

Death Knights [42] 2x2
The Duskblade [8]
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Raven Tabards [2]
Total Unit Cost: 58

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Wind Rune [6]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Basically removed 3 of the lancers & their upgrades to put in a 2x2 with deathknights. Normally I think I would go with MoI and Reaping blade on the deathknights but with Ardus around I want to be able to borrow that surge ability. I like the idea of the 3x2 lancers with CI and master-crafted but they cost a lot of points.

I like the list. I feel like it has a little bit of everything. You kinda want the swiss-army-knife approach so you can deal with a variety of lists.

On 16/01/2018 at 10:28 PM, Glucose98 said:

I also call it KariThorne

Can’t believe no one has called it Carithornia yet

Came up against another KariThawne list. Lost by 12 points, but that is significantly better than what I was doing before. Battle report can be found here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/270692-undead-get-dispatch-runnered-by-karithawne/

On 1/17/2018 at 12:28 PM, Qark said:

Thoughts on this?

199/200

Ardus IxErebus [37] 1x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Ardus Fury [1]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Reanimates [35] 3x2
Deathcaller [5]
Metered March [2]

Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 53

Death Knights [42] 2x2
The Duskblade [8]
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Raven Tabards [2]
Total Unit Cost: 58

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Wind Rune [6]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Basically removed 3 of the lancers & their upgrades to put in a 2x2 with deathknights. Normally I think I would go with MoI and Reaping blade on the deathknights but with Ardus around I want to be able to borrow that surge ability. I like the idea of the 3x2 lancers with CI and master-crafted but they cost a lot of points.

I don't like it! Ardus is too costly for what he offers, I think CI + Duskblade is too expensive even when it find a good target, and I'd say you're probably better off with either CI or wind rune on the archers, but not both. I'd be more worried about something like

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimates [50] 3x3
Deathcaller [5]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Metered March [2]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 68

Death Knights [42] 2x2
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 51

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Though I'd probably do Death Knights in a 2x1 to fit another Lancer.

9 minutes ago, Bhelliom said:

I don't like it! Ardus is too costly for what he offers, I think CI + Duskblade is too expensive even when it find a good target, and I'd say you're probably better off with either CI or wind rune on the archers, but not both. I'd be more worried about something like

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimates [50] 3x3
Deathcaller [5]
Support Carrion Lancer [6]
Blighted Vexillum Bearer [3]
Metered March [2]
Simultaneous Orders [2]
Total Unit Cost: 68

Death Knights [42] 2x2
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 51

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Reanimate Archers [18] 2x1
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 24

Though I'd probably do Death Knights in a 2x1 to fit another Lancer.

Thanks for the feedback! I really like your list so I'll have to try something similar this weekend, as we have another comp coming up.

I agree with your statements about the dusk blade circuit combo. When it goes off it is brilliant but so often those death knights don't get a surge.

I must say that I disagree with your assessment of ardus. I don't like him with any other load out but he seriously pulls his weight in this list. Once you know how to get him into combat before he dies that is.

39 minutes ago, Qark said:

I must say that I disagree with your assessment of ardus. I don't like him with any other load out but he seriously pulls his weight in this list. Once you know how to get him into combat before he dies that is.

Alright, I'm gonna break down what Ardus brings to the table:

• Host of Crows. Pretty sweet, no doubt about it.
• An artifact slot. This is mostly good because of Obcasium's Gauntlet, though I prefer it on Death Knights.
• An effective combat unit. He's got a decent dial, two white at threat two, standard 3/4 durability, he's fine. Having to spend his unique slot on Precise sucks, but here we are. Maybe take Fortuna's to fix his dice and get away with the free surge?
• The weird surge borrowing ability. Pretty much relies on a unit with Combat Ingenuity nearby, but blight or mortal strikes or hits are great effects for a surge. Difficult to evaluate.

Let's ignore Host of Crows for a sec. Looking at him purely as a fighting piece, he's pretty much outclassed by a 2x1 of Death Knights. Both bring an artifact slot, both want to buy Precise, both have Defense 3 and 4 wounds. Death Knights lose threat after two casualties which is a serious factor, but do resist mortal strikes. Their offensive output will probably end up similar in a lot of cases, while the Death Knights bring a great dial. Blue Reform threatens flank charges really well, speed-2 bonus action is real handy, initiative nine activation helps control the battlefield, it's all good stuff. 39 points for Ardus vs 28 for the knights.

So what are all those points buying you? Well, Host of Crows, really. Let's consider the Reanimate build of Deathcaller, Support Lancer, and Simultaneous Orders. 63 points minimum, or 48 if you have Ardus. Let's say you take two! Now you stand to save 30 points by bringing Ardus, which means only 7 more and he's paid for! Except the opportunity cost is 7 points and six trays of Reanimates, so you really have to ask yourself whether Ardus is going to bring more to the table than half a Lancer and your 3x2's being 3x3's. From my experience, he does not.

2 hours ago, Bhelliom said:

So what are all those points buying you? Well, Host of Crows, really. Let's consider the Reanimate build of Deathcaller, Support Lancer, and Simultaneous Orders. 63 points minimum, or 48 if you have Ardus. Let's say you take two! Now you stand to save 30 points by bringing Ardus, which means only 7 more and he's paid for! Except the opportunity cost is 7 points and six trays of Reanimates, so you really have to ask yourself whether Ardus is going to bring more to the table than half a Lancer and your 3x2's being 3x3's. From my experience, he does not.

Ardus is 43 points in my build above, lets assume you want rerolls and go to 44 points instead. If we swap him out for deathknights with rerolls and the gauntlet (33 points) which is a roughly equivalent combat unit, that's only 10 points we have to save with host of crows to make ardus worthwhile. Your not trying to get ardus for "free" using host of crows but you do need to justify taking him over the deathknights by using host of crows on a few things. Even if you ignore the archers and deathknights I am saving 15 points on the blightcaller block alone. Now I'm not getting the bodies that come with the extra trays but for the blightcaller unit in particular I don't really think that matters.

But it isn't just the maths you need to consider. Ardus being such a small footprint is extremely useful too. He can squeeze between your units which makes him very hard for you opponent to charge and he is exactly were you want him to be, within range to borrow those surge abilities. From there he can flank anything that engages your other units and he will kill more than enough stuff from a flanking position to make back his points.

I don't think he is an auto include in every list but in some places he has his place, unlike Maro who costs WAY too much for what he does.

Ardus is tricky to maneuver and put in the right position, but he brings a good deal more to my list than *just* Host of Crows. HoC is, of course, an amazing army building boon, but ignoring that he still has one of the fastest attacks available to Waiqar and is capable of pulling off the Wheel-2 maneuver (A template I'm convinced most people just don't use anywhere near often enough, or they'd realize how dangerous a flanker this makes Ardus.)

He's a must-have for any list that invests any chunk of pts in surge related abilities, as well. Ardus effectively doubles your investment into ANY Combat Ingenuity pairing, allowing you to maximize what is often a large points price.

Running DKs with CI+Duskblade? Ardus doubles that ability. Running a 2x1 Archer blight battery w/ CI? Every Surge Ardus rolls is a blight. Enemy blighted and there's a CL (Or even a frontline lancer upgrade) nearby? Every surge Ardus rolls is now a Mortal Strike. Most importantly, if you're smart with your positioning and formation, he will be able to choose which of these surges he uses on a case-by-case basis.

Ardus is, IMO, the single most flexible and forward compatible single unit in the entire game. He's not easy to use right, and I got him killed more times than I can count before I started pulling off wicked flanks with him, but now he tends to wreck everything put in his path (provided I set him up properly).

I've had him singlehandedly hold an entire Spearstar in place for multiple turns by clever use of his fast (and incredibly damaging) attack on initiative rounds, followed by simply refusing to re-engage when given the opportunity and following up with a later initiative charge the next round.

I managed to beat the Karithorne! Used something a little different:

200/200

Reanimates [64] 4x3
File Leader [6]
Raven-Standard Bearer [3]
Aggressive Drummer [5]
Moment of Inspiration [5]
Total Unit Cost: 83

Reanimate Archers [45] 3x2
Tempered Steel [3]
Combat Ingenuity [6]
Total Unit Cost: 54

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Carrion Lancers [15] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 15

Death Knights [24] 2x1
Obcasiums Gauntlet [5]
Rank Discipline [4]
Total Unit Cost: 33

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/270957-karithorne-the-list-i-can-beat/