Today during a game I used reload to get an extra green dice for Vynder even though all my ordnance was face up. Looking back at the reference card, I'm starting to think I shouldn't have been allowed to do that. What's the verdict?

'any number' can include 0, you're all good.

But... why not just do a SLAM and have the same result?

14 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

But... why not just do a SLAM and have the same result?

Presumably because he doesn't want to move.

It's probably worth noting however, that just taking a focus action will get you most of the same benefit as getting a WD token will on Vynder.

To look at the card:

Reload Action: Ships with the [reload] icon in their action bar may perform the reload action. To reload, choose any number of the ships equipped, discarded [torpedo] and [missile] Upgrade cards and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token.

Hrm. I think I'm fine with the "zero is a number" argument here, but it's worth looking at a counterargument based on shield-restore cards. There, however, all these cards specify "restore 1 shield." Because shields can't be restored if you're already at full shields, you can't gain ONE specifically and incur the cost. However, Reload doesn't specify a number. If it specified "chose 1 equipped upgrade" instead, I think there'd be a case that it couldn't be used without a face-down upgrade. But that's not what the card says.

Reload away, I think.

The "cannot recover if Shields are full" rule of thumb actually comes from the Rules Reference book (p.17 under Shields ). The "cannot pay the cost to recover" clarification is a more recent reversal within the FAQ. Overall I would say recovery is a unique mechanic that should not be used as precedent for any other mechanic.

In my group we agreed that in this situation yes, Vynder can reload to flip zero cards faceup and receive a weapons disabled.

Thanks everyone. I wasn't sure, based on the wording, whether turning the card itself was the action. If not, that's all good.

Let me preface this with, as it stands, I don't actually have a problem with ships reloading when already fully loaded but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this one.

Can the ship reload if it never had any ordinance equipped at all? That seems weird and cheaty. I'm pretty sure there's no reason for anyone other than Vynder to do it but give him PTL and he could focus and then do a meaningless reload just to boost his agility for defenseif he doesn't have a shot or equip him with the Assault title and a Flechette Cannob and he can still shoot when he does. It's by no means a broken combination but it feels like we're violating the spirit of the rules here.

More to the actual letter of the rules though the reload action says to choose any number of your "equipped discarded" cards. Since it specifies "equipped discarded" then if you haven't discarded any yet then you're basically in the same position as if you had never equipped any in the first place. I am totally on board with saying you could CHOOSE 0 to flip. The catch is should you be allowed to even make a choice if you don't have any to choose? You're basically saying "I'd like to do action A on item B" when you don't actually have an item B. Could I coordinate with a ship that isn't there? I know, there's no reason to do that and it's worded differently so it's not a perfect analogy but you see my point.

Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to start a fight, just some academic discussion. As it stands RAW I wouldn't argue in a game with reloading an already loaded ship but it seems wrong and this is my Devil's Advocate argument against.

If 0 of X is a valid choice, it's valid regardless of the value of X.

3 hours ago, sharrrp said:

Let me preface this with, as it stands, I don't actually have a problem with ships reloading when already fully loaded but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate on this one.

Can the ship reload if it never had any ordinance equipped at all? That seems weird and cheaty. I'm pretty sure there's no reason for anyone other than Vynder to do it but give him PTL and he could focus and then do a meaningless reload just to boost his agility for defenseif he doesn't have a shot or equip him with the Assault title and a Flechette Cannob and he can still shoot when he does. It's by no means a broken combination but it feels like we're violating the spirit of the rules here.

More to the actual letter of the rules though the reload action says to choose any number of your "equipped discarded" cards. Since it specifies "equipped discarded" then if you haven't discarded any yet then you're basically in the same position as if you had never equipped any in the first place. I am totally on board with saying you could CHOOSE 0 to flip. The catch is should you be allowed to even make a choice if you don't have any to choose? You're basically saying "I'd like to do action A on item B" when you don't actually have an item B. Could I coordinate with a ship that isn't there? I know, there's no reason to do that and it's worded differently so it's not a perfect analogy but you see my point.

Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to start a fight, just some academic discussion. As it stands RAW I wouldn't argue in a game with reloading an already loaded ship but it seems wrong and this is my Devil's Advocate argument against.

I actually think this may be the correct interpretation. Think about Minefield Mapper and how it instructs you to "Discard any number of your equipped [bomb] Upgrade cards." The ruling there is taht the limit on the number you can choose is the number you actually have equipped, thus you can't choose 4 if you have 2 with EM.

This feels like the same situation "To reload, choose any number of the ship's equipped, discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards and flip them faceup, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token."

Zero is certainly a valid choice for "any number", but the question is, do you have any valid options to choose from to be allowed to choose zero if you don't have any that are already discarded.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

If 0 of X is a valid choice, it's valid regardless of the value of X.

Unless X is undefined?

There is no ruling against zero on minefield mapper, there is a ruling against dropping more than the number of cards that are literally there.

Greeting,

We had this debate last night! So here is my point, and I believe someone said the same... Reload says... "To reload, choose any number of the ship's equipped, discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards and flip them face-up, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token." If you do not have any equipped, discarded cards, then you should not be able to complete the action. However.... it does say "any number" and not " you must choose at least one" so unless they FAQ it, you should be allowed to do it as written.

9 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

Greeting,

We had this debate last night! So here is my point, and I believe someone said the same... Reload says... "To reload, choose any number of the ship's equipped, discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards and flip them face-up, then assign the ship a weapons disabled token." If you do not have any equipped, discarded cards, then you should not be able to complete the action. However.... it does say "any number" and not " you must choose at least one" so unless they FAQ it, you should be allowed to do it as written.

This has historically always allowed zero to be a number, therefore you could choose zero discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards.

On 1/18/2018 at 7:53 AM, clanofwolves said:

This has historically always allowed zero to be a number, therefore you could choose zero discarded Torpedo or Missile Upgrade cards.

That's zero equipped , discarded torpedo or missile cards.

23 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

That's zero equipped, discarded torpedo or missile cards.

...zero is a number.

17 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

...zero is a number.

"equipped" is the keyword you missed in the quoted text. Zero equipped is the point of contention, which I agree is a valid option.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

"equipped" is the keyword you missed in the quoted text. Zero equipped is the point of contention, which I agree is a valid option.

Can one not equip zero?

13 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Can one not equip zero?

One can equip zero. I agree threat zero is a valid number for both equipping and having discarded. I was merely adding the word "equipped" to what you had already said.

On 1/16/2018 at 6:28 AM, thespaceinvader said:

Presumably because he doesn't want to move.

It's probably worth noting however, that just taking a focus action will get you most of the same benefit as getting a WD token will on Vynder.

Push the Limit for both!

51 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

One can equip zero. I agree threat zero is a valid number for both equipping and having discarded. I was merely adding the word "equipped" to what you had already said.

Got cha ? it is an unusual kind thing, what counting zero and all; but it is a solid FFG constant. So hey, as long as rules are consistent, I’m in.

I think everyone is missing the most important word in reload. DISCARDED. If you have no discarded missile or torpedo upgrade cards you shouldn't be allowed to perform the Reload Action.

It's been a very long time since I used a Venn diagram but I'm pretty sure that if plotted out, the intersection would result in a NULL SET. That set doesn't contain "ZERO".

I may be wrong. Like I said, it's been a very long time since I had to use a Venn Diagram. I also said that FFG opened up a can of worms allowing the use of tokens to activate abilities while being spent on nothing.

I am wondering about this too. I just got my Star Wing and am looking at options and was thinking with Karsabi - if I put Wired on him and I don't want to SLAM to get the weapons disabled to remove, can I reload if I didn't take any missiles/torpedoes in the first place?

Although it does seem kinda dirty to me, having used Farlander to spend a stress without rolling any focus results many times I think the above situation would have to be allowed.

I played HLC Karsabi with Wired in the Stockholm regional yesterday and the judge there ruled that I was not allowed to Reload with nothing reloadable equiped.

As I find it a very fun ship to fly which I intend to use more and the empty Reload being a neat trick it would be nice to get some clarification.

With the current wording, I can see no sensible argument that you shouldn't be allowed to pick 0 cards, even if you have none equipped. In fact, the reload action is worded somewhat awkwardly and the only reason I can think of for the current wording is to specifically allow that. I can't think of a reason to disallow it either since it is very rarely advantageous... PTL Vynder is probably the only case and it's quite minor.

Pulsed Ray Shield and such are not analogous as their wording is quite different ("pay X to Y", which the FAQ has ruled you are not allowed to pay X if you can't do Y).

Not having something isn't the same has having 0 of something. If you don't have something you can't pick 0 of it. If you have something you can pick 0 of it.