13 hours ago, horsepire said:

Respectfully disagree. Not only were assault gunboats an absolute staple of the LucasArts flight sims (rather less obscure, at least to the 30 years and older crowd, than anything from Battlefront/Galaxies), they look like Star Wars ships. That's subjective, I realize, but the resemblance to the Lambda is strong enough that even if you'd never played TIE Fighter, you'd be able to draw the parallel.

People here tend to forget that FFG needs to appeal to younger buyers as well, some whose parents were just born or small children when these games were played. These buyers have more affinity to younger SW stuff games and stuff, not some ugly polygon mess from the early nineties.

The gunboat reminds of the Lambda, yes, but imho looks stupid as .... *running for cover*

Miranda with TLT, Bomblet and Harpoons is something I can handle. Or at least I think I can, which might still be wrong. Dealing good initial damage and then >1 every round is possible, unless she‘s protected by prenerf-Biggs and maybe Lowhhrick. But still, that‘s a game I like to play.

What I don‘t like is Nym. Even if he were to fly alone:

• Harpoons cover his firing arc, which hurts a lot. Plus, much of that space is also hit by an additional faceup card because of a launched proton bomb.
• Dashing into his R1 arc to get past the launched proton bomb and the Harpoon nets in a 4dice primary. Call me antiquated, but that still hurts me.
• Arcdodging in R1 has good chances to land me in a dropped proton bomb. Now, Rebel Nym is not scum Nym, so it would hurt him too. But then again I‘m not running a 10 HP ship, so it definitely hurts me more. This also has the downside that Nym can talon roll.
• Arcdodging and evading the dropped bomb lands me in TLT territory. It is a sad day when taking 1-2 TLT damage is my safest spot.

So which choice is best? Do I take the TLT shots? The R1 primary? Or the proton bomb and force him to damage himself?

And during all this I can‘t focus on Miranda - and NOW I care about her Harpoons and TLT a lot. They can (semi-)reliably deal 4 damage by TLT, every turn and out of arc. Is that my best choice? To pray to Duncan that I will evade the TLT?

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Miranda with TLT, Bomblet and Harpoons is something I can handle. Or at least I think I can, which might still be wrong. Dealing good initial damage and then >1 every round is possible, unless she‘s protected by prenerf-Biggs and maybe Lowhhrick. But still, that‘s a game I like to play.

What I don‘t like is Nym. Even if he were to fly alone:

• Harpoons cover his firing arc, which hurts a lot. Plus, much of that space is also hit by an additional faceup card because of a launched proton bomb.
• Dashing into his R1 arc to get past the launched proton bomb and the Harpoon nets in a 4dice primary. Call me antiquated, but that still hurts me.
• Arcdodging in R1 has good chances to land me in a dropped proton bomb. Now, Rebel Nym is not scum Nym, so it would hurt him too. But then again I‘m not running a 10 HP ship, so it definitely hurts me more. This also has the downside that Nym can talon roll.
• Arcdodging and evading the dropped bomb lands me in TLT territory. It is a sad day when taking 1-2 TLT damage is my safest spot.

So which choice is best? Do I take the TLT shots? The R1 primary? Or the proton bomb and force him to damage himself?

And during all this I can‘t focus on Miranda - and NOW I care about her Harpoons and TLT a lot. They can (semi-)reliably deal 4 damage by TLT, every turn and out of arc. Is that my best choice? To pray to Duncan that I will evade the TLT?

Dodge him at range 2-3. That's why arc-dodge is a thing right now.

No it's not easy, but still a thing. And, in my opinion, I think that you (opponent) must eat some damages throught one of his guns (bombs, ab turret, tlt, ok maybe not the Harpoon) in order to rush Nym and kill him.

But still, flanking him at range 2-3 still the best thing to do in my opinion. Or, if you're beefy enough, rush him get some damages and kill him off.

But if you can, in that match up I'll try to focus Mirada first. In late game, Miranda is nearly unstopable where Nym still "just" good.

4 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Dodge him at range 2-3. That's why arc-dodge is a thing right now.

That‘s what I meant by eating/evading the TLT.

That‘s a bit mind blowing, isn‘t it? That eating TLT is the best choice?

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

Dodge him at range 2-3. That's why arc-dodge is a thing right now.

No it's not easy, but still a thing. And, in my opinion, I think that you (opponent) must eat some damages throught one of his guns (bombs, ab turret, tlt, ok maybe not the Harpoon) in order to rush Nym and kill him.

But still, flanking him at range 2-3 still the best thing to do in my opinion. Or, if you're beefy enough, rush him get some damages and kill him off.

But if you can, in that match up I'll try to focus Mirada first. In late game, Miranda is nearly unstopable where Nym still "just" good.

Ideally you'd ionise him and approach from the side, but most lists simply overlook Ion as a useful element, ever since their inception. A couple /D Defenders with Ion cannons can create a kill box even Nym can't avoid. At that point he's super predictable for the next round, so you can do it agan. And again. After that Miranda can't kill a defender by herself.

PS 11 Black One/R2/Autos/Optics Poe and PS 11 Kylo are pretty much the only ships that can deal with TLTs, Harpoons, Primaries and bombs at once, and they both cost half a list.

Miranda has a massive vulnerability to stress, and Nym's not far behind. A stressbot can work wonders on both of them - and if you can avoid taking two shots a turn on it you'll cripple their list before it goes down. Triple Tactician Wookies could also get milage.

2 hours ago, Astech said:

Ideally you'd ionise him and approach from the side, but most lists simply overlook Ion as a useful element, ever since their inception. A couple /D Defenders with Ion cannons can create a kill box even Nym can't avoid. At that point he's super predictable for the next round, so you can do it agan. And again. After that Miranda can't kill a defender by herself.

PS 11 Black One/R2/Autos/Optics Poe and PS 11 Kylo are pretty much the only ships that can deal with TLTs, Harpoons, Primaries and bombs at once, and they both cost half a list.

Miranda has a massive vulnerability to stress, and Nym's not far behind. A stressbot can work wonders on both of them - and if you can avoid taking two shots a turn on it you'll cripple their list before it goes down. Triple Tactician Wookies could also get milage.

Yeah I tend to agree. Even with my lack on experience, I thing that control should be useful against this archetype. But it's safer to bring the list itself, more than bring a control list against it.

I think this is why we see a lot of NymMiranda lists.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That‘s what I meant by eating/evading the TLT.

That‘s a bit mind blowing, isn‘t it? That eating TLT is the best choice?

Well, better the TLT than an Harpoon shot or a bomb+ab turret shot. Or a proton bomb itself.

And maybe you even have AT during the dodge.

Just a thought but I think that with 10 hp and 1 agi, one of the ways should be "bring more damages to him than him bring to you". A sort of all-in maybe.

43 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Well, better the TLT than an Harpoon shot or a bomb+ab turret shot. Or a proton bomb itself.

And maybe you even have AT during the dodge.

Just a thought but I think that with 10 hp and 1 agi, one of the ways should be "bring more damages to him than him bring to you". A sort of all-in maybe.

Luckily they usually don‘t bring AB turret anymore!

I guess I‘m wrong, but I keep thinking that staying at range1 (out of arc, ofc!) might be another good solution. Sure the Genius-Proton threat is large, but you will trade 1 hull for 1 hull. It does hurt, because last time I did that I ate a direct hit in QD.

But if I have QD there, I will deal 3-4 damage, additionally. For eating one. Plus I doubledare Miranda to shoot QD, because that will be another 3-4 damage.

I recently had this idea of how such trades might be compared (but I‘m sure I‘m not the first):

Let‘s say Nym is 52 points. Then each point of HP is 52/10, or worth 5.2 points. My QD is 38-40. I‘ll use the latter, so 40/6 = 6.6 points per HP.

Staying behind Nym at range 1 means we will trade 6.6 of my points for 20.8 of his. If Miranda shoots me there, I get another 15.6, so 36.4 of his points for 13.2-19.8 of mine. That is still a very good trade!

I believe it‘s even better because the combination of his cards and losing an opportunity to deal damage when losing 1/2 of ships makes his ship worth even more.

TL;DR: I believe that any 3red primary, but especially QD, should take the risk of a Proton, declare „I don‘t believe you“ and just shoot Nym at range 1 out of arc.

(and bless the automatic save, I wanted to post during the update...!)

But putting aside if Nymranda is broken or not. How anyone in their right mind would ever want bombs to be anything more than niche pick? For me X-Wing is all about flying and shooting in dogfights. Bombs make this game clumsy, fiddly, longer and frustrating - unfortunately FFG listened to a herd of whiners (and remind you there was unbeareable outcry that bombs are unplayable) so they give what crowd wanted - bombs are finally useful and thanks to Sabine crew card and Trajectory Simulator you can all enjoy what you wished for.

5 hours ago, Managarmr said:

People here tend to forget that FFG needs to appeal to younger buyers as well, some whose parents were just born or small children when these games were played. These buyers have more affinity to younger SW stuff games and stuff, not some ugly polygon mess from the early nineties.

The gunboat reminds of the Lambda, yes, but imho looks stupid as .... *running for cover*

That's right, you'd BETTER run!

Unfortunately for you the GUNBOAT has SLAM now!

None of this would have been a problem if they just would have left Nym as a scum only pilot IMO.

Just now, RedSkull said:

None of this would have been a problem if they just would have left Nym as a scum only pilot IMO.

Have you played against NymAssaj lately?

Something about the combo of Nym and Miranda that has not been stated thus far in this thread (which I'm actually surprised that it did not come up): in a frontal confrontation (which is a bad idea) against a "tanky" list, Nym can use the rule of 11 to move forward, drop a bomb with trajectory simulator and use his ability to keep it in place. On the next round, he can drop a 2nd bomb at the exact same spot while doing a simple 1 forward to avoid the blast.

So if the opponent really does go for full frontal assault, he might end up with 2 proton, 1 sabine and 2 harpoons (most likely the area affect from one harpoon) before such a list gets to fire back­. That hurst.

I'm still searching for a proper counter to this, but after a lot of solo tests on vassal, a frontal asssault does not seem to be the way to go.

14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Have you played against NymAssaj lately?

No I havent played against that, but you aren't running into the same damage output that you are in the Rebel version being discussed in this thread.

Also you can at least get half points from Assaj and Nym doesnt have the ability to delay his bombs on the scum side. Just saying that the scum Nym is slightly easier to deal with.

1 minute ago, dotswarlock said:

Something about the combo of Nym and Miranda that has not been stated thus far in this thread (which I'm actually surprised that it did not come up): in a frontal confrontation (which is a bad idea) against a "tanky" list, Nym can use the rule of 11 to move forward, drop a bomb with trajectory simulator and use his ability to keep it in place. On the next round, he can drop a 2nd bomb at the exact same spot while doing a simple 1 forward to avoid the blast.

So if the opponent really does go for full frontal assault, he might end up with 2 proton, 1 sabine and 2 harpoons (most likely the area affect from one harpoon) before such a list gets to fire back­. That hurst.

I'm still searching for a proper counter to this, but after a lot of solo tests on vassal, a frontal asssault does not seem to be the way to go.

I've kind of touched on that in this thread about putting a mat down and theorycrafting how to counter it. I run Double Ghost + Ezra a lot since the sheathipede Ezra came out. I have to place my ships first. There is almost no movements I can do that by turn 2 Nym isn't able to hit me. At best I can fortress or deploy pointing left/right in the middle and try to run for another turn or two but he *IS* going to catch me. If I'm running then I'm not shooting him out of my primary and he's throwing harpoons or TLT at me. If I joust I'm eating 1 or 2 protons plus whatever bad thing happens with that and at least one harpoon volley. Sadly my best choice is to take him head on, cross my fingers I don't pull a blinded pilot on the proton in the first engagement and try and punch him out as fast as I can. And then I have to deal with Miranda.

I've been trying to test out Dengar + Boba both with EU and enough of a bid(95-96 points...bleh!) to pass initiative to move second and even then you may dodge a bomb in one turn but not have a good out to take one on the second. But that list was so lean on points that you lost economy to get the ability to re-roll dice and your damage output isn't as good as you would like for the sake of avoiding bombs.

And that's the real crux of the Nym + Trajectory + Proton. It's hard to accommodate for one or two protons in addition to the raw firepower after it and have enough left over to take on Miranda.

17 minutes ago, viedit said:

I've kind of touched on that in this thread about putting a mat down and theorycrafting how to counter it. I run Double Ghost + Ezra a lot since the sheathipede Ezra came out. I have to place my ships first. There is almost no movements I can do that by turn 2 Nym isn't able to hit me. At best I can fortress or deploy pointing left/right in the middle and try to run for another turn or two but he *IS* going to catch me. If I'm running then I'm not shooting him out of my primary and he's throwing harpoons or TLT at me. If I joust I'm eating 1 or 2 protons plus whatever bad thing happens with that and at least one harpoon volley. Sadly my best choice is to take him head on, cross my fingers I don't pull a blinded pilot on the proton in the first engagement and try and punch him out as fast as I can. And then I have to deal with Miranda.

I've been trying to test out Dengar + Boba both with EU and enough of a bid(95-96 points...bleh!) to pass initiative to move second and even then you may dodge a bomb in one turn but not have a good out to take one on the second. But that list was so lean on points that you lost economy to get the ability to re-roll dice and your damage output isn't as good as you would like for the sake of avoiding bombs.

And that's the real crux of the Nym + Trajectory + Proton. It's hard to accommodate for one or two protons in addition to the raw firepower after it and have enough left over to take on Miranda.

I've been searching for a different counter... well, not so much a counter so much as a way to blunt the attack. I'm searching for away to throw a scrambler missile in there. Most (but not all) Nym configurations use guidance chip, so losing the target lock could prove disastrous. Miranda losing her target lock or focus might not stop the attack, but it would make it far less dramatic.

So yeah, searching along those lines at the moment.

So far most everyone in this thread has been acting under the assumption that Nym will be flinging proton bombs, but in my limited experience I usually see Nym with Ion Bombs and Thermal Detonators (probably for mirror matches) so all those strategies about using control to deal with Nymiranda get flipped on their head, because Nym can do it right back to you.

8 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

So far most everyone in this thread has been acting under the assumption that Nym will be flinging proton bombs, but in my limited experience I usually see Nym with Ion Bombs and Thermal Detonators (probably for mirror matches) so all those strategies about using control to deal with Nymiranda get flipped on their head, because Nym can do it right back to you.

Yeah I think that comes down to how much of a bid you want. Protons looked to be more successful overall, but at the cost of being a 98-100 point list instead of 94-96. I'd be happy to see thermals across the table. Ion not as much, but both are better than proton.

8 minutes ago, viedit said:

Yeah I think that comes down to how much of a bid you want. Protons looked to be more successful overall, but at the cost of being a 98-100 point list instead of 94-96. I'd be happy to see thermals across the table. Ion not as much, but both are better than proton.

I agree.

Thermals and ions have me happily behind him, eating the bombs for range 1 shots that cost him 1/3 of his HP. I‘ll take that trade anytime

I absolutely LOVE The @Mynock Delta's take on this in their last episode. Enough to remix it down to favorite bits. Here you go:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yooLoJ9ri6P2El-xiw4enjK3qdN-Z8pO/view?usp=sharing

If I had music remixing skills, I would mix this with a nice slow-tempo house-y/baby-driver type beat. Instead of "Was he slow" it would be "C'MON!" and "FINAL FORM".

On 16/01/2018 at 1:05 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

Honorable Mentions for "not Star Wars-y" are the YV-666 and the Kimogila. They are heinous.

I dont know why but every time i see the YV in play it reminds me of the Arcadia, from Captain Harlock.

7 hours ago, Embir82 said:

But putting aside if Nymranda is broken or not. How anyone in their right mind would ever want bombs to be anything more than niche pick? For me X-Wing is all about flying and shooting in dogfights. Bombs make this game clumsy, fiddly, longer and frustrating - unfortunately FFG listened to a herd of whiners (and remind you there was unbeareable outcry that bombs are unplayable) so they give what crowd wanted - bombs are finally useful and thanks to Sabine crew card and Trajectory Simulator you can all enjoy what you wished for.

I might be off base, but I that "herd of whiners" was speaking about the lack of usable bombing mechanics from the Y-Wing and the TIE Bomber. But FFG fixed new OP s**t like Miranda and Nym and left those that were lamented over in the foam or used as a stresshog or a Lightweight Frame mini-Shuttle. In my opinion, they didn't listen at all.

12 hours ago, Managarmr said:

The gunboat reminds of the Lambda, yes, but imho looks stupid as .... *running for cover*

Man, I'm not sure if I should retort this or no, I don't think it's just older people who like the aesthetics of the Gunboat. I do realize your statement of Star Wars heresy is a personalone, albeit clearly wrong and unnerving opinion. Well @Managarmr, we'll just let this go as we walk away with our heads shaking...

What if Trajectory Simulator was a one time use card?

1 minute ago, Boba Rick said:

What if Trajectory Simulator was a one time use card?

Or Genius for that matter. Dang thing only cost 0 points. It’s too good for 0 points.

5 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Or Genius for that matter. Dang thing only cost 0 points. It’s too good for 0 points.

That's how the the original nerf *should* have been worded. Instead of discarding the bomb card, you discard Genius. Basically you use him and he's busted at that point. His original intent was to be a suicide bomber with Y-wings. At the time extra munitions was not a thing and nobody was going to be dropping 10 points in protons on a low PS y-wing that was trying to kill itself.