26 minutes ago, AceWing said:

It's one weekend, man. Relax. It was a good call and caught many people off guard. People will certainly be better prepared next time.

You say it's one weekend. Have you tried mapping out just how hard it is to avoid his bombs? Try it. The only way you are going to do it reliably is to be at PS11 (or 10 with a **** of a bid) and have repositioning at the cost of dice modification or some other action.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. If you have a large base ship at a PS or bid below his and he lines up directly across from you by turn 2 you will be eating a bomb unless your rocks are perfect to slow him down. In some situations you could be eating a bomb in turn one and another in turn two.

Do a 3 bank a 5 forward fling of a bomb and see just how much range that covers, especially when your opening placement scares them into the middle of the board.

24 minutes ago, viedit said:

You say it's one weekend. Have you tried mapping out just how hard it is to avoid his bombs? Try it. The only way you are going to do it reliably is to be at PS11 (or 10 with a **** of a bid) and have repositioning at the cost of dice modification or some other action.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. If you have a large base ship at a PS or bid below his and he lines up directly across from you by turn 2 you will be eating a bomb unless your rocks are perfect to slow him down. In some situations you could be eating a bomb in turn one and another in turn two.

Do a 3 bank a 5 forward fling of a bomb and see just how much range that covers, especially when your opening placement scares them into the middle of the board.

I don't know what to tell you, man. Maybe you're wasting your time trying to avoid, at most, two damage and taking ordinance because of it. I've never seen you play. I've been playing against this list for a month and I haven't become a chicken little from it. *shrug*

It is what it is. Learn to beat it or, I guess, sit online and complain about it.

You say "at best" two damage. What if that damage is a proton under the shields in the form of a console fire or a damaged engine on a ship that relies on it's turns (Shadowcaster). On turn one or two...

And it's not "at best" 2. It's actually 3 if you pull a direct hit and Sabine. If Inquisitor pulls a direct hit from a proton bomb you may as well shake hands at that point and call it a day.

When you play, how is Nym usually kitted out and what are you flying? Bomblet I don't really fear too much. But a Proton bomb or Ion bomb...yeah that's scary.

5 minutes ago, viedit said:

You say "at best" two damage. What if that damage is a proton under the shields in the form of a console fire or a damaged engine on a ship that relies on it's turns (Shadowcaster). On turn one or two...

And it's not "at best" 2. It's actually 3 if you pull a direct hit and Sabine. If Inquisitor pulls a direct hit from a proton bomb you may as well shake hands at that point and call it a day.

When you play, how is Nym usually kitted out and what are you flying? Bomblet I don't really fear too much. But a Proton bomb or Ion bomb...yeah that's scary.

Every single list is not going to just come down to flying. Some lists are disadvantaged, sometimes severely, against other lists. You can't bring up how fragile aces are to bombs and expect to be taken seriously. No **** that they're weak to bombs.

My bad; I skipped a damage.

The only version I've been flying against is the Trajectory shenanigans with Proton Bombs version. It's not that scary. Play something else that isn't so soft to bombs. Metagames are cyclical.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

On top of everything, Veterans Instincts might be a fundamental problem for ship design.

I have really, really grown to hate VI and adaptability. I'm not entirely sure why they haven't been nerfed in some way (non-unique only, or something) because they have become auto include due to high PS shenanigans...

7 minutes ago, impspy said:

I have really, really grown to hate VI and adaptability. I'm not entirely sure why they haven't been nerfed in some way (non-unique only, or something) because they have become auto include due to high PS shenanigans...

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of making VI/adaptability generic pilot only. It would end the race to PS11, make legitimate aces....well... legitimate aces and just completely shift the current meta. That gives a squishier Ace like Soontir or Wedge some sort of chance against a PS10 bomb chucking Nym.

4 minutes ago, viedit said:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of making VI/adaptability generic pilot only. It would end the race to PS11, make legitimate aces....well... legitimate aces and just completely shift the current meta. That gives a squishier Ace like Soontir or Wedge some sort of chance against a PS10 bomb chucking Nym.

IIRC the highest skilled generics are the Royal Guard Interceptor Pilot and the Glaive Squadron Defender at PS 6 each. To me, capping VI/Adaptability's use to raise skill at "8" would be a good thing for the meta.

13 minutes ago, viedit said:

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of making VI/adaptability generic pilot only. It would end the race to PS11, make legitimate aces....well... legitimate aces and just completely shift the current meta. That gives a squishier Ace like Soontir or Wedge some sort of chance against a PS10 bomb chucking Nym.

I’ve seen this suggestion before. The issue is then it becomes Vader Fell QD Kylo (Silencer) for the Empire. Dengar, Talonbane, and Rau for Scum and Poe, Rau, and Wedge,as almost a guarantee to start a list for factions in many cases just due to wanting that PS Advantage. It might not change anything at that point from Nym/Miranda since they are already at 8. They survive the initial joust and control from there.

Yeah, but I think I'm ok with that. You can still use Nym for area denial instead of a straight up f-you. TLT's still murder Vader. Cobra continues to be a glass cannon. It puts a lot of skill/chance back into choosing dials.

I would love to see some sort of mass event where it was tied out.

30 minutes ago, impspy said:

I have really, really grown to hate VI and adaptability. I'm not entirely sure why they haven't been nerfed in some way (non-unique only, or something) because they have become auto include due to high PS shenanigans...

I was thinking on this earlier. After some games, friend said once a while back "Maybe Veteran Instincts should be once per game." I wasn't into it at the time, but I'm not sure now. I don't think I like +2 at once per game, but maybe it just sets you to 8 PS for generics, 12 PS for unique pilots. Discard it at the start of activation, and it lasts until the end of the combat phase. That'd allow some huge jumps on mid-tier unique pilots, but that's kind of interesting to me.

If Adaptability wasn't free, I don't think I'd change it. But it is free. I dunno. If VI was gone, maybe I'd be fine with it. Hasten slowly, so try a VI change first, and see if Adaptability still presents a problem. Maybe keep the -1 side, but have the other side as +0. So you can drop to match a partner, or not if you need the PS against a particular opponent.

//

The other thing I keep wondering about: should Initiative rotate? Player A has initiative turn one, Player B has initiative turn two, and so forth. Having or not having seems too punishing in some matchups, and building for bid is kind of a PITA. With an alternating initiative, that'd be theoretically neutral, but you know that a higher-level player would be able to use it to advantage. Move last on the approach to be the only ones getting TLs, then move first to throw blocks, and so forth. The player with the bid could still determine who gets the first initiative, but I think it'd be interesting to test.

You have to be careful what you wish for. If nym only has to worry about those few PS9 ships, just like he does with the few PS11 ships now, you just created the same exact scenario (only a few ships can get above him) but his EPT is now wide open. Lone Wolf Nym? PTL Nym? Expertise Nym?

The problem is Nym should never of had an EPT to begin with. Playtesters are dumb.

15 hours ago, wurms said:

You have to be careful what you wish for. If nym only has to worry about those few PS9 ships, just like he does with the few PS11 ships now, you just created the same exact scenario (only a few ships can get above him) but his EPT is now wide open. Lone Wolf Nym? PTL Nym? Expertise Nym?

The problem is Nym should never of had an EPT to begin with. Playtesters are dumb.

Except that there are ships at 9 that can do the same, then -- there are ships that can't sub in VI and get to 11 because they need a different EPT. Heck it even opens up more 8s for the same reason with a bid. But, I agree with the idea that this would have been easily solve as Nym shouldn't have had an EPT>

2 hours ago, AceWing said:

It's one weekend, man. Relax. It was a good call and caught many people off guard. People will certainly be better prepared next time.

Technically true, but that's missing the forest for the trees.

A lot of the cards in the list have been warping metas for over a year. I mean, TLT/Sabine Miranda isn't a new ship, and all three have issues. Harpoons have been everywhere from the minute they were printed. Nym already forced an errata for Genius at lighting speed for FFG, and Trajectory Simulator opens up a lot of the space they'd just closed. While the particular version of the list is new, most of the cards in it have been discussed as potential problems for a while.

While I think it's too soon to say this is Jumpmaster levels of problem yet, but still...

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Technically true, but that's missing the forest for the trees.

A lot of the cards in the list have been warping metas for over a year. I mean, TLT/Sabine Miranda isn't a new ship, and all three have issues. Harpoons have been everywhere from the minute they were printed. Nym already forced an errata for Genius at lighting speed for FFG, and Trajectory Simulator opens up a lot of the space they'd just closed. While the particular version of the list is new, most of the cards in it have been discussed as potential problems for a while.

While I think it's too soon to say this is Jumpmaster levels of problem yet, but still...

It's one very bad weekend but the writing was on the wall last weekend and people were prepping for this list this week.

Nym isnt really the problem anyways. I have no problems with a non-adv sensors trajectory harpooning Nym, he hits hard as **** for a round or two before you kill him, just like Bossk. Trajectory Scum Nym isnt making waves for one simple reason:

The problem is, and always will be Miranda. Missiles/Bombs/Crew slot/Turret/Regen/Slam/5 Dice attacks.

6 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

He's not hard to pop in a single round of combat, despite his health.

A 10 health and 1 agi ship doesnt really die to 3 ships with 3 fully modded reds. So not sure how its easy to pop nym in one round.

Even 3 harpoons are pushing it

20 minutes ago, wurms said:

Nym isnt really the problem anyways. I have no problems with a non-adv sensors trajectory harpooning Nym, he hits hard as **** for a round or two before you kill him, just like Bossk. Trajectory Scum Nym isnt making waves for one simple reason:

The problem is, and always will be Miranda. Missiles/Bombs/Crew slot/Turret/Regen/Slam/5 Dice attacks.

Just adding proper emphasis. And her Regen cost you nothing extra to get unlike the other ships requiring 3/4 points and uses up a slot. She is the epitome of efficiency without the need of an EPT to enhance her capabilities. Nym as a wingman with similar capabilities was poor on the developers. Nym is essentially what Miranda would be with a few slots changed out without the Regen. And perhaps a better dial.

6 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Nymiranda won Salt Lake Regionals. Dash/Poe only made the top 4.

Thanks, fixed it. I had mixed Swiss with Championship on some by accident - fixed a few others too. I also added the newer regionals on page 1 and 2 of List Juggler.

Does add some more Nym/Miranda. Three basic things show up consistently - Palp Aces (usually QD and Inquisitor or Vader), Nym/Miranda, and Poe + 1 (usually fat turret). From this perspective I can see Nym / Miranda is warping the meta after all since it looks like Palp Aces with QD at PS 11 are intended to dodge bombs and rebel regen Poe can eat a few bombs and shake them off later - Mike Jones had Poe and a regen ARC-170, which has a similar flavor just not fat turret.

3 hours ago, viedit said:

'm not trying to be facetious here. If you have a large base ship at a PS or bid below his and he lines up directly across from you by turn 2 you will be eating a bomb unless your rocks are perfect to slow him down. In some situations you could be eating a bomb in turn one and another in turn two.

Why are you jousting a proton bomb and a harpoon shot?

12 hours ago, Boba Rick said:

Those ships seem fragile, especially Nym, like 2-3 harpoons from something with Deadeye and you just killed one of them. Or punch hard and regen, like Norra, and you'll win.

What am I missing here?

The issue is High PS combined with High Alpha combined with High mods for that alpha. You have a better than likely chance to losing a ship before it even fires after a Proton bomb+Sabine+TLT+TLT/Harpoon. Not even to add that multiple ships can have a crit already on them depending where the bomb lands, then there is turn 2...

39 minutes ago, Koing907 said:

Why are you jousting a proton bomb and a harpoon shot?

You don’t have to be jousting to have the bomb and harpoon shoved down your throat. The Nym player just has to guess your move to within a range 1 bubble, and thanks to Genius and Trajectory Simulator he gets multiple guesses.

Just now, Herowannabe said:

You don’t have to be jousting to have the bomb and harpoon shoved down your throat. The Nym player just has to guess your move to within a range 1 bubble, and thanks to Genius and Trajectory Simulator he gets multiple guesses.

I was going to say exactly that, you can guess roughly what a player is likely to do. TLT+TS just inspires slow roll play. Dial in 1 bank/straight, you should catch them with at least 2 bombs. TS+TLT dodnt care how stressed you are, you can dial in a K turn if they are getting close, launch, if they arent close use Nyms ability to delay its explosion, pretty much denying an area that the enemy will go.

3 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

and thanks to Genius and Trajectory Simulator he gets multiple guesses.

Can't stress this enough.

A PS10 Nym has nearly perfect information and FOUR locations per round to choose from to drop/launch his bomb. "Guessing" where to place your bomb reactively with near perfect info like that is exactly why they nerfed SLAM bombs, and also why TS Genius is such a problematic combo.

I feel like a 7-8 TIE swarm would probably do well against this list, but they're pushed out of the meta by other factors.

11 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

I feel like a 7-8 TIE swarm would probably do well against this list, but they're pushed out of the meta by other factors.

Like lists that can fling bombs around left and right and do extra damage with them thanks to Sabine.

Wait...