So we all know that this rule seems rather unnecessary or potentially overbearing but it is what it is and we should be adhering to it.

Having said that I just wanting to get everyone's take on the definition of "outside material" and what you would consider "Outside Material"

I would assume that "outside material" is basically anything that’s not officially produced by FFG that doesn't already have exceptions (like 3rd party templates and tokens etc.), so any kind of object that may or may not have writing or symbols on it for the purposes of assisting your gameplay.

Having set the scene, I watched a YouTube video yesterday where one of the players had notes or symbols written on his thumbs for the purpose of reminding him to decloak with his whisper at the start of each round. The commentators made note of It and commented that this was something he does on a regular basis.

Obviously decloaking Whisper, or more importantly not decloaking whisper when you intend to but forget can significantly impact a game so this is probably one of the most relevant examples of potential "Outside Material", my question is though, is this a clear example of "Outside Material"?

I don’t recall the player or the game and have no intention of purporting he willfully cheated, but am more interested in others thoughts on this scenario, If it would bother you as an opponent and most importantly, due to the lack of floor rules from FFG and no set penalties for specific infractions, what a suitable penalty would actually be If it was determined the player was using "outside material"?

For reference here is the excerpt from the rules relating to Taking Notes & Outside Material:

Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round. However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official rule documents include all rules documents and inserts available on the X-Wing page of our website, those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof.

You'll have to go back about two years but there was an instance at one match where a player had a paper note attached to his Phantom that Read either "cloak" or "decloak". I think this is where the rule originated from.

In the case you mentioned, I believe the player was breaking the "spirit of the law" at the very least.

I don't see why using a token to remember that Palpatine was already used is ok, but having a note to remember to decloak is wrong. At base this rules about taking note is a total idiocy... It is the first competitive game I seen that prevent people from taking note during a match...

The prohibition of taking notes during a game might be there to prevent it being a cover for slow play.

The prohibition on bringing outside notes , that aren't available from FFG, might have been included to prevent, or was in response to, someone bringing movement notes. Not the movement charts that are included with each ship but custom ones that show how far a move displaces your base for a turn or bank.

I don't think FFG makes rules like this JUST because they can but in response to a situation that occurred. Probably during a tournament. There are those WAAC players who will do things simply because "it doesn't say I can't".

I could be wrong and the developers have become megalomaniacs pulling weird rules out of the air instead of issuing rulings on stuff like the TLT+ Harpoon condition.

I have nothing against no outside note, most game ban these, you are the one playing, not your friend that laid out how you should play the game. But if the note taking was removed because of slow play this is something that should be handle during game by TO, not as a broad rules. If I forgot one of my opponent trick a turn, writing down, "don't forget that", take 10 sec during my opponent ship movement. I don't see why someone with a ADD should be more penalized then someone with a missing hand from playing the game. Is it a game of "I have less disability then you" or is it a game of I plan my play better then you.

I complain now because I was not aware that the rule of taking note was enforced so much that you could not even write down to not forget your uncloak...

Note taking that creates a slow play situation is one thing. This is entirely different.

If someone I'm EVER playing has a written reminder to decloak a tie phantom at the beginning of activation, I'm okay with it. It's not adversely going to alter the flow of the game and it's not my definition of "outside material." If I am a TO, I'm not making a fuss over it either.

THAT said, if my opponent forgets to decloak during a tournament, and the game state has changed (other ship(s) have activated) now this person has additional information and has missed an opportunity.

Generally if I have ship(s) activating before theirs I'll say, "Let's move to activation phase. <PAUSE> I'm moving [insert pilot name]. <PAUSE>" I'll hang it out there for a moment (maybe five seconds the first time) and then I might even add (once, the first time) "anything we have that triggers at beginning of activation?"

I'm not the best player in the world, in the region, or even at my FLGS. But I don't need to win with "gotcha" clauses.

What if someone has a tattoo on their hand that says "decloak?" Or has a piece of string tied to a finger? Is that outside material?

This is a game. We play it to have fun. If someone is not playing tiny space ships on a table w/ dice to have fun, then I question how much I really want to play that person.

I'm pretty sure the ban on note taking mid game is to prevent slow play. Both deliberate and incidental. Going to time is common, especially at the bigger events where this is more likely to be enforced and I can tell you from experience there's little more frustrating in this game than losing on time to a slow opponent who had zero chance of winning if it played out.

As far as "referencing outside material" personally I don't think a reminder to decloak written on your thumb falls under that. Even non-official stuff is allowed as long as it's only information from official material. For instance, a reference card with all the maneuvers for each ship on it that you made yourself is acceptable because that is information on the inserts, you don't need to be using the actual inserts. What if he just wrote the decloak reference card text on his hand? I don't see how anyone could complain about that and a couple symbols on your thumb is really just a shorthand version of that.

If you had something like a reference chart for dice odds that you were checking to decide on an action or some sort of reference for estimating maneuvers beyond the templates themselves then that's definitely outside material. Anything that just acts as a reminder of official rules I don't think would count as "outside" material, but to paraphrase the Big Lebowski that is "just like my opinion man."

So in short I personally don't think the thumb thing violates the spirit of the rule but it's a bit of a fuzzy rule.

Wow. This reminds me of how long it’s been since I played a cloaking ship. Feels like all 4 of the evers.

Writing on your finger is fine. The Decloak action (not really an ACTION.. but you know) exists, it is not outside information or taking notes to have it on your finger, or on a piece of paper by your cards. It has been long established that reformatting tables from the manual, ship maneuver lists and other such 'public information' is allowed. It all falls under the " players may reference official rule documents..." "...those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

Things you can't do.. take notes of every move you or your opponent makes. Bring in HOTAC style AI sheets to help you determine your next move. Have a coach tell you or an opponent what to do or remind you of a missed opportunity. Use something to help measure outside of a legal measurement opportunity (AR apps on phones or some kind of lighting/laser guide)

The rule is written a little vague because FFG writes everything a little vague, but (I think) also so someone doesn't break the rule and then try to justify it with "the rule technically doesn't exclude ... blah blah blah" It give a TO the flexibility to disqualify someone who is clearly breaking the spirit of the rule.

Can you print out the dial maneuvers for ships and have them with you at the table? I want to print maneuvers sheets then hand them to my opponent instead of them asking to see my dial every other turn. And I would like a sheet also so I dont have to bug them. Just too many ships right now to remember all the greens.

14 minutes ago, wurms said:

Can you print out the dial maneuvers for ships and have them with you at the table? I want to print maneuvers sheets then hand them to my opponent instead of them asking to see my dial every other turn. And I would like a sheet also so I dont have to bug them. Just too many ships right now to remember all the greens.

Absolutely. Anything that's from the official products is NOT considered outside material. This includes your own copies of that information printed in your own format.

10 hours ago, xbeaker said:

Writing on your finger is fine. The Decloak action (not really an ACTION.. but you know) exists, it is not outside information or taking notes to have it on your finger, or on a piece of paper by your cards. It has been long established that reformatting tables from the manual, ship maneuver lists and other such 'public information' is allowed. It all falls under the " players may reference official rule documents..." "...those found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

Things you can't do.. take notes of every move you or your opponent makes. Bring in HOTAC style AI sheets to help you determine your next move. Have a coach tell you or an opponent what to do or remind you of a missed opportunity. Use something to help measure outside of a legal measurement opportunity (AR apps on phones or some kind of lighting/laser guide)

The rule is written a little vague because FFG writes everything a little vague, but (I think) also so someone doesn't break the rule and then try to justify it with "the rule technically doesn't exclude ... blah blah blah" It give a TO the flexibility to disqualify someone who is clearly breaking the spirit of the rule.

So in your second sentence you state that clearly you can't have someone (or assumedly something i.e. written notes) coaching you to remind you of missed opportunities, but then in your first sentence you say writing notes on your hand to remind yourself of potential missed opportunities is OK.

It certainly seems to be that there is a very big grey area as to what different people think constitutes "outside Material".

What I dislike is if player A calls someone out, player A is most likely called a WAAC player and ridiculed, often resulting in player A not saying anything at all in the first place about something they may consider unfair assistance for their opponent. This in turn then seems to make what was potentially suspect play by player B become more accepted as no one "speaks up about it"

Uhm... isn't there a cloak token you have to put next to your ship to indicate it is cloaked? Wouldn't that be every bit as much of a reminder to decloak as anything scribeled on a pice of paper or your hands? If you see that token and don't remember to decloake, you sure can see a note on your thumb and still forget, so I guess I just don't see the point of that particular example.

That said, I wouldn't object to it if my opponent did it.

14 hours ago, Smuggler said:

Uhm... isn't there a cloak token you have to put next to your ship to indicate it is cloaked? Wouldn't that be every bit as much of a reminder to decloak as anything scribeled on a pice of paper or your hands? If you see that token and don't remember to decloake, you sure can see a note on your thumb and still forget, so I guess I just don't see the point of that particular example.

That said, I wouldn't object to it if my opponent did it.

under the old decloacking rules yes this wouldnt be a problem because you decloaked right before you move the ship and you would see the token and remember.

Under the new rules decloacking happens before any other ship moves so for example one of your other ships is set to move first, you are focused on that ship, you go to flip its dial but you see you have written "Declock" on your thumb, you quickly remember to decklock Whisper then go back and flip your dial for your first ship.

I cant tell you the amount of times I have seen players with whisper go to move her and curse because they forgot to declock and its far to late to back it up, more often than not parking on a rock because they had planned their move assuming they woud have declocked first.

Having a decloak remind sounds like outside material to me. If you allow that then its a slippery slope of "reminder" notes and you end up with a board of notes that slows down the game and makes it look like crap. If you can have a decloack reminder then you can have a "use this focus on defense only" reminder or a "if you want to shoot backwards with the sf then only use 2 dice forward" reminder.

Now having it written on your body as a permanent reminder is probably different as it does not slow down the game or clutter up the board. It is a minor infraction and as a TO i have no way to really remove a mark on someone's hand, by the same token however if you had a big sheet of reminders on a piece of paper that you read every turn I would definitely ask you to put that away because it violates the outside materials statement and slows everything down.

Basically when I am TOing please do not put me in a situation to deal with this, don't write **** on your hands. If your opponent complains it puts me in a horrible spot because I cant scrub off your pen marks and I don't want to kick you out for that so what can I do?

As a TO if you allow people to write notes on their hands then they could conceivably write down a 20pt checklist of things for every turn. Not only would that slow down the game it would clearly be against the rules.

@Icelom So as a TO you would ban people from using a token to remember that Palp was used because it is not an official game token ?

I have TO'd many events and have always ruled that taking notes is NOT allowed in any form save one. The ONLY thing I have ever allowed was if a card was subject to an errata, you can make a notes on the card itself. Otherwise, the game provides you with everything you need to remind yourself of the game mechanics. Crit tokens, cloak tokens, weapons disabled tokens, ION tokens, Tractor Beam tokens, etc. The pilot and upgrade cards have what actions and abilities you have at your disposal. You are supposed to bring all the tokens you need to operate your list. You are even allowed to bring a copy of the latest FAQ with you if you need to look up a ruling.

I have had people bring notes on with reminders on how to run their lists while it may seem harmless, it is unfair to everyone else.

On 1/16/2018 at 11:02 PM, Mace Windu said:

So in your second sentence you state that clearly you can't have someone (or assumedly something i.e. written notes) coaching you to remind you of missed opportunities, but then in your first sentence you say writing notes on your hand to remind yourself of potential missed opportunities is OK.

No.. I say someone. NOT "assumedly something". Coaching is any advice from another person. If your finger is talking to you and telling you to do things, X-wing rules questions are the least of your troubles. Coaching is someone coming over and telling you you should K turn because the other player is likely to do a hard 2, or that you should really take a focus because it would give you a statistical advantage on your defense as opposed to an evade. And yes, if you have someone else by your side pointing out missed opportunities or something. A reminder to yourself to remember to decloak to start the round is not coaching.

8 hours ago, Icelom said:

Having a decloak remind sounds like outside material to me. If you allow that then its a slippery slope of "reminder" notes and you end up with a board of notes that slows down the game and makes it look like crap. If you can have a decloack reminder then you can have a "use this focus on defense only" reminder or a "if you want to shoot backwards with the sf then only use 2 dice forward" reminder.

Now having it written on your body as a permanent reminder is probably different as it does not slow down the game or clutter up the board. It is a minor infraction and as a TO i have no way to really remove a mark on someone's hand, by the same token however if you had a big sheet of reminders on a piece of paper that you read every turn I would definitely ask you to put that away because it violates the outside materials statement and slows everything down.

Basically when I am TOing please do not put me in a situation to deal with this, don't write **** on your hands. If your opponent complains it puts me in a horrible spot because I cant scrub off your pen marks and I don't want to kick you out for that so what can I do?

As a TO if you allow people to write notes on their hands then they could conceivably write down a 20pt checklist of things for every turn. Not only would that slow down the game it would clearly be against the rules.

It's a shame we aren't some kind of free willed entities with the ability to make judgement calls and can say when a single personal reminder is ok but flipping through a notebook worth of reminders every turn is too much. It sucks being a computer that can only make binary all-or-nothing decisions. Oh how I envy the humans.

Seriously though. Do you really think someone is going to have a table full of reminders. The problem with phantoms, is that they must act out of turn. It is so easy to to skip their very limited window. And in this slippery slope would you deny maneuver templates that let you know all the moves other ships make? Slipery slope of notes there, but FFG has said they are legal. What it is a mental check list. What if every turn a player had some mnemonic devices, a rhyme or something they said to help them remember moves or actions? Would that be outside information? At that point you are saying the use of your brain is outside resources and is banned. There is a slippery slope on the other side of the hill as well you know.

As for what you can do if someone complains that their opponent has something written on their hand.. explain to the player that is complaining that there is nothing illegal about having a hand note and let them get on with their game. The just because a person is complaining doesn't mean they are necessarily correct.

1 hour ago, shaunmerritt said:

The ONLY thing I have ever allowed was if a card was subject to an errata, you can make a notes on the card itself. Otherwise, the game provides you with everything you need to remind yourself of the game mechanics. Crit tokens, cloak tokens, weapons disabled tokens, ION tokens, Tractor Beam tokens, etc.

So you have never let people use a Palp Token to remember that Palp was use that turn...

6 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

What it is a mental check list. What if every turn a player had some mnemonic devices, a rhyme or something they said to help them remember moves or actions? Would that be outside information? At that point you are saying the use of your brain is outside resources and is banned. There is a slippery slope on the other side of the hill as well you know.

I really like this example, because yes, down to the spirit of it, using a Mnemonic Rhyme, like alphabet song, are exactly the same as writing on a small paper. Would you ban someone from reciting the Mnemonic before the turn ?

1 hour ago, shaunmerritt said:

I have TO'd many events and have always ruled that taking notes is NOT allowed in any form save one. The ONLY thing I have ever allowed was if a card was subject to an errata, you can make a notes on the card itself. Otherwise, the game provides you with everything you need to remind yourself of the game mechanics. Crit tokens, cloak tokens, weapons disabled tokens, ION tokens, Tractor Beam tokens, etc. The pilot and upgrade cards have what actions and abilities you have at your disposal. You are supposed to bring all the tokens you need to operate your list. You are even allowed to bring a copy of the latest FAQ with you if you need to look up a ruling.

I have had people bring notes on with reminders on how to run their lists while it may seem harmless, it is unfair to everyone else.

Would you deny the use of maneuver reference card? FFG has explicitly said they are allowed. but based on your stringent rules you would disallow it.

No because that is a component of the game allowed by FFG. Now if they brought a list of the maneuvers and how to react to them, that's another thing all together.

24 minutes ago, shaunmerritt said:

No because that is a component of the game allowed by FFG. Now if they brought a list of the maneuvers and how to react to them, that's another thing all together.

Understand I am being serious here, I am not trying to be insulting or anything. I am just trying to see what some people are delineating as "outside information."

So a home printed sheet containing all maneuvers is a game component, but the word "decloak" is not?

I assume having the 'Decloak' rule card is obviously allowed. What if I had that card attached to the back of my hand with spirit gum? What if I have a piece of yarn tied to my finger as a reminder?

On 1/19/2018 at 8:59 AM, shaunmerritt said:

I have TO'd many events and have always ruled that taking notes is NOT allowed in any form save one. The ONLY thing I have ever allowed was if a card was subject to an errata, you can make a notes on the card itself. Otherwise, the game provides you with everything you need to remind yourself of the game mechanics. Crit tokens, cloak tokens, weapons disabled tokens, ION tokens, Tractor Beam tokens, etc. The pilot and upgrade cards have what actions and abilities you have at your disposal. You are supposed to bring all the tokens you need to operate your list. You are even allowed to bring a copy of the latest FAQ with you if you need to look up a ruling.

I have had people bring notes on with reminders on how to run their lists while it may seem harmless, it is unfair to everyone else.

How would you resolve a discrepancy in game state between two players? For example: Player A swears he has removed all shields from ship one but player B insists ship one has one remaining shield left. I'm too busy watching the board to also be watching if my opponent put a shield back on his ship.