Ok so I just read https://suchanxwinghipster.wordpress.com

and his discussion of Nymiranda and I’m feeling suddenly less excited about going to Regionals.

At the UK Regional in Wales, there were 132 players.

“The top 16 was made up of 14 Rebels and 2 Imperials. Scum a total no show.

Of those 14 Rebel lists 9 of them (from what I can work out) yes 9 were Nym and Miranda…

The top 8 had Ben Lee and 7 Nymandas in it.

The top 4 had 4 identical lists in it.”

I think this sucks.

Here’s the new cancer:

Cancer squad (98)

Captain Nym (52) - Scurrg H-6 Bomber
Veteran Instincts (1), Twin Laser Turret (6), Extra Munitions (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Thermal Detonators (3), Proton Bombs (5), Havoc (0), Long-Range Scanners (0), Trajectory Simulator (1), "Genius" (0)

Miranda Doni (46) - K-Wing
Twin Laser Turret (6), Extra Munitions (2), Harpoon Missiles (4), Sabine Wren (2), Bomblet Generator (3), Long-Range Scanners (0)

So I’m not calling for Nerfs (though Miranda, Sabine, and Trajectory Simulator all need something to bring them in line), I’m wondering how to deal with this. Given that this list was so popular and successful in a major regional, I know It’s going to show up again and again until FFG cures this brand of cancer.

So besides “Git Gud” and “focus fire on Nym,” what do you guys think one needs to do to deal with this list?

Maybe a shot of tequila with extra salt?

Tried to play vs it today.

Amazing how it covers all angles and keep constant pressure.

Ion, blocking and tons of hull !

Tripple Scurg maybe?

30 hull should be troublesome.

I've found that with some good piloting you can ignore the bombs altogether if you take ships that can manuver out of range.

I was flying against a Crimson Specialist, Nym and Fenn Rau, with a Thweek, Dalen (M12) and Fenn (the full list is a bit back in the forum under the name "Dalenn" if you want the details.

Trajectory simulator more or less becomes useless after the first engagement (at least on less maneuverable ships) because you have to lead your target with the bomb, not throw it behind them. And with my capability to boost and barrel roll like a monster, my opponent ended up having to drop bombs and hit himself with Crimson Specialist, to end up being able to hit me. If he placed and moved out of range, I could too with boost and barrel roll. I took down nym first so he couldn't freeze bombs (that ability is absolutley horrendus because you can't avoid them if you get boxed in), and then proceeded to fly around his other bombs and plink his bomber.

If you plan carefully and take stuff that can either ignore their turrets (like auto thrusters), and can get away from bombs in close engagements, I've found that its not too bad. Obviously if you find a situation with an unavoidable bomb thats no bueno. But the whole idea is to not get into those situations in the first place. He can't use trajectory endlessly and has a finite amount of bombs on Nym (still a lot, but not endless), so if you can bait a few early launches that you can dodge around anyways, thats a 1-2 less bombs that he has when it matters.

Best,

Cow

16 minutes ago, Cow-of-Doom said:

I've found that with some good piloting you can ignore the bombs altogether if you take ships that can manuver out of range.

5 hours ago, Muppetfluffer said:

Tried to play vs it today.

Amazing how it covers all angles and keep constant pressure.

Ion, blocking and tons of hull !

Tripple Scurg maybe?

30 hull should be troublesome.

Maybe...?

• 38 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Deadeye, Harpoon Missiles, Extra Munitions, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners
• 31 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Trick Shot, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners
• 31 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Trick Shot, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners

I think having an Ion cannon or turret in a list is definitely an idea at this point.

Also, Rey might be a thing,

After using it at a regionals a couple weeks back. I can confirm that large ships, high health or extremely maneuverable, high PS ships are the toughest match ups.

Timewarp Asajj, Dengar, Other Nym’s, Bumpmasters and PS11 Vader in particular I found to be tough match ups if the opponent knew how to pilot them effectively.

Ghost/Lowhrick I’m sure would have also been difficult, however I didn’t verse a list like it.

Darn. I didn't make it to the Cardiff Regionals. Given that Miranda Doni is probably my least favourite ship in the game, I'm not so unhappy, now.

14 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

So I’m not calling for Nerfs (though Miranda, Sabine, and Trajectory Simulator all need something to bring them in line), I’m wondering how to deal with this. Given that this list was so popular and successful in a major regional, I know It’s going to show up again and again until FFG cures this brand of cancer.

Heh.

Yeah, there will always be a 'top squad', so saying "I can't beat it, remove it from the game for me" isn't realistic. However,

14 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

The top 8 had Ben Lee and 7 Nymandas in it.

The top 4 had 4 identical lists in it

When the top 4 all have functionally identical lists, you have a problem child.

Quote

So besides “Git Gud” and “focus fire on Nym,” what do you guys think one needs to do to deal with this list?

Maybe a shot of tequila with extra salt?

Well, what does the squad have, good and bad?

• Twin Harpoon Missiles x 2, Extra Munitions x 2, Long Range Scanners x 2
  • It's enough of a missile alpha strike to make the opening joust hurt, but not enough to really guarantee a kill in the opening joust.
  • Long Range Scanners will prevent them re-locking at close range, and they lack guidance chips and/or Push The Limit, meaning they can't acquire a target lock and get any focus modification in the same turn, and if they don't spend their target lock to allow them to fire their second shot, they don't get any modification on their missiles at all unless they have a focus token.
  • In short, Anything which can get in close and stay in close can deny them effective use of their missiles
  • Also, lacking guidance chips, they don't have a reliable way of setting off a harpoon (a proton bomb won't do it)
• Bombs A Go-Go
  • Bomblet Generator on Miranda, 4 x Bombs and Trajectory Simulator on Nym, and Sabine Wren.
  • I....don't know. I've not yet flown against a trajectory simulator bomber, and it's not something I'm looking forwards to. Thermal detonators are a bit of a nightmare, because they throw out a control effect, too, and Nym has the ability to turn bombs into a sort of minefield with his 'don't detonate' ability.
  • The only saving grace is that Trajectory Simulator has replaced Advanced Sensors: you can fly and then drop the bomb with Genius (what are TO's ruling re Genius/Trajectory Simulator, by the way?) but that aside you're drop points are set, and the bombs are not in unlimited supply.
  • It still means chasing Miranda is suicidal because you take a Sabine-enhanced bomb every turn.
• Twin Twin Laser Turrets
  • Everyone's favourite turret upgrade. Twice
  • So, unless you get in close (where you have to contend with bombs) you're still under four TLT shots per turn, which is a reliable 4 damage per turn to any medium-to-low agility target.
• Lots of health
  • 9 Health with shield regeneration on Miranda Doni, 10 Health without on Nym
  • All agility 1 with no damage mitigation tricks

There will be a doctrine to take on this squad with any squad you like, but an ideal squad to face this wants:

• To be able to avoid missiles and bombs - meaning ideally not having to joust head-on.
• To be able to win the "damage race" versus two twin laser turrets (one with shield regeneration)
• With 2 low agility ships that want to drop bombs or point missiles at you, a control element would be much appreciated. I don't have any in my squad and I'm aware that's one reason I keep getting battered by Miranda Doni.
• Concentrated fire can kill Nym fairly quickly, but - certainly for my squad (5 x Strikers) I keep wondering if I should be aiming to engage Nym or Miranda first.
• Definitely, Long Range Scanners react badly to "where the heck did you come from?" squads - like Dormitz & the Batwings, for example.

I find myself wondering if a Twin Laser Turret squad might do okay? Especially if one or two turrets were subbed out for Ion Cannon turrets. 4 TLTs firing broadside on should be able to win the damage race against two, even if they've had to eat a pair of harpoons beforehand.

Honestly, I find myself wondering about something I suggested as a joke a while back; I like 5-ship squads (people aren't used to dealing with the numbers) and since it's a complete-ship-in-a-pack, I was wondering about trying 5 XG-1/Jamming Beam gunboats.....They've got the health to tank twin laser turret fire, especially if it's unmodified, and primary 2 can hit agility 1 fairly reliably.

Im flying 2 x7 deltas and 2 Nu with harpoons.

starting to consider to go with Ioncannons on the NU instead.

But will diminsh the lists effectiveness vs other lists >.<

Also started to look at

Vader/QD with jamming missiles (to remove initial harpoon, should also be good vs QD+3)and a Rho with title/ion/tractor and crackshot.

12 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Maybe...?

• 38 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Deadeye, Harpoon Missiles, Extra Munitions, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners
• 31 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Trick Shot, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners
• 31 - Lok Revenant (Scurrg), Ion Cannon Turret, Trick Shot, Courier Droid, Long Range Scanners

So the thing here is that (optimal engage for NymRanda) you lose your 38 point Scurrg before it gets to shoot... then you are eating double bombs and tlt shots if you try to ion/follow them off the board with your remaining 2.

I honestly think that either Kanan Fenn, Kanan Lowhhrick or twin VCX is probably the worst matchup for Nym/Miranda ... either that or something like quad wookiees.

So basically fight the new cancer with the old, reliable cancer.

Nym and Miranda both die to concentrated fire. The big problem is managing to do that.

Nym is easier to get in arc, Miranda can slam away unless your ships are higher PS.

Meanwhile, your ships take damage from the TLTs or bombs or Harpoons.

So the ideal counters to it are:

1) Flying better than your opponent (Nym and Miranda are hard to fly - making mistakes means getting killed).

2) Being higher PS, preferably with repositioning.

3) Having enough hit points to withstand a few bombs/missiles.

4) And having enough damage mitigation to withstand several turns of TLT fire.

Fat Han? With Poe?

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

So the thing here is that (optimal engage for NymRanda) you lose your 38 point Scurrg before it gets to shoot... then you are eating double bombs and tlt shots if you try to ion/follow them off the board with your remaining 2.

Odds of that have to be low, though - even if they both get perfect 4-hit harpoon shots off and you roll 0 evades, that's 8 damage. Throw in a harpooned! damage card if one missile sets off the previous one and you're still shy a point of damage to try and kill it before it fires.

[Goes away to figure it out]

You can get a PS-kill if you manage to:

• roll 4 hits with a Nym 4-dice missile (77% chance)
• roll 5 hits with a Miranda Doni 5-dice missile (72% chance)
• roll at least one critical with Miranda Doni to set off the Harpooned! condition (57% chance)
• Not roll an evade on either attack with the Lok Revenant (39% chance)

That gives an all-up chance of killing the scurrg at something like 1/8, give or take Direct Hit! or Major Explosion criticals.

Getting a second missile off with a Deadeye Scurrg, is, I agree, unlikely.

EDIT: forget that rubbish. Assuming an optimal engagement, then yes you're a scurrg down, because a trajectory-simulator launched bomb & extra damage from Sabine puts you on 8 remaining health - well within the expected kill range for two well-modified harpoons.

Thing is, triple deadeye scurrgs with Harpoons & chips probably have a decent chance - if you can get three harpoon missiles in the air, one or other of those two is probably going down, and even two harpoons can cripple one of them with a little luck.

7 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

EDIT: forget that rubbish. Assuming an optimal engagement, then yes you're a scurrg down, because a trajectory-simulator launched bomb & extra damage from Sabine puts you on 8 remaining health - well within the expected kill range for two well-modified harpoons.

Two trajectory simulator bombs ... as Nym is holding one from the round before.

Harpoons scurrgs shouldn't be 100-0 to this, but on the alpha exchange, they fall way behind in the damage race, and either Nym or Miranda can deal with the remaining 2 boats solo I think especially given their ability to reposition.

I lost twice to this list in the Cardiff Regionals. The list seems very aggressive and really gave me pause in how to approach it. I lost because of my own mistakes though: my list should be able to pull out a win (Vess/Ryad/Rho), but it needs a really good approach.

I think you need to jump in range 1 asap and then kill Nym as quickly as possible. Then it's just how many ships are left (from the harpoons, TLTs and bombs), before Nym's go down. The risk is to never be able to kill Miranda if you haven't got enough guns left.

Only go after Miranda at the beginning if you're confident you can remove her quick. But that'd be the preferred scenario! (Removes Sabine and regen).

I think at least TS and Genius should be changed. I don't understand why we would have had Genius and slam bombs nerfed, only to give Nym a brand new tool, arguably even better

Still, it's definitely beatable. And now everyone knows it's there, I expect lots of counters to appear!

If it's of any interest, I posted a battle report of my games here:

https://force-is-strong.blogspot.co.uk

While thinking about Nym and Miranda ... you may want to also bear in mind how you would approach this little variant that saw light at Cardiff ... made top cut ... savage

https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!41:27,245,110,126,-1:-1:11:U.166,U.41;254:27,135,126,243,-1,181,41:53:25:U.-1,u.117&sn=Cancer doubledown&obs=

Ten Numb (31)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Trajectory Simulator (1)
"Mangler" Cannon (4)
Extra Munitions (2)
Sabine Wren (2)
Proton Bombs (5)
B-Wing/E2 (1)

Captain Nym (Rebel) (30)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Twin Laser Turret (6)
Extra Munitions (2)
Harpoon Missiles (4)
Thermal Detonators (3)
Proton Bombs (5)
"Genius" (0)
Guidance Chips (0)
Havoc (0)

Total: 98

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Anyone considered new Han?

Fat, Humongus and r1 from first turn. (After moving ofc)

Something like this.

Rebel with 5+eu

(100)

•Han Solo (59) - YT-1300
Veteran Instincts (1), Gunner (5), •Captain Rex (2), •Millennium Falcon (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Lothal Rebel (41) - VCX-100
Enhanced Scopes (1), Wookiee Commandos (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

I like the fat han but maybe norra instead of the vcx, get the regen option to keep her around.

So the general consensus here is to beat the Nymranda u need tanky ships, decent maneuverability, ions and stress, now how to incorporate that into one list... I thought of this (Note: Avid Ghost lover here)

I took inspiration from the Calen's (Kalen's???) Pride list which basically ran this except with tlt on the ghost and Biggs as the wing man (RIP) with M9-G8. I think there's probably something better than M9-G8 for Fenn, as its usual function in this list was to give extra rerolls on the tlt shots so you didn't have to spend the TL or focus. I was thinking Flight assist astromec and then maybe putting hotshot co-pilot or pulse ray shield (I know pulse ray shield is a bit 'meh' but i really like tactician on Fenn).

So the obvious idea behind this is to ionise either Nym or Miranda (I would probably go for Nym first) and set them up to take a fat 6 dice primary to the face in the following round, and follow up with another ion shot, ultimately keeping the process going. With only one agi, it shouldn't be too difficult to get that ion shot off. Chances are Fenn is still going to die really early, but if it means you take either Miranda or Nym off the board then its worth it, ghost will have little to no problem 1v1'ing either one of those two. Thoughts?

What about this Kanan Fenn list?

BigGhost (100)

•Kanan Jarrus (55) - VCX-100
Advanced Sensors (3), Twin Laser Turret (6), Rey (2), Recon Specialist (3), •Ghost (0), Countermeasures (3)

•"Zeb" Orrelios (18) - Attack Shuttle
•Phantom (0)

•Fenn Rau (27) - Sheathipede-class Shuttle
Veteran Instincts (1), Weapons Engineer (3), •M9-G8 (3)

You want engine upgrade on the ghost to help with the range jump and the PS11 coordinate to boost out of arc while leaving a shot out the rear is super sweet.

Time to call back an old adversary... Cruise Missiles.

Darth Vader (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Advanced Targeting Computer (1)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/x1 (0)

The Inquisitor (25)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Scrambler Missiles (2)
Guidance Chips (0)
TIE/v1 (1)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Cruise Missiles (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Why CM over Poons?

- Poons are more expensive

- CM is 5 dice attack. The range 1 explosions from Poons will hurt your own list more than the opponents, since the Nym and Miranda shouldn't really be in range 1 of one another.

- Poons are cancer.

5 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Two trajectory simulator bombs ... as Nym is holding one from the round before.

Harpoons scurrgs shouldn't be 100-0 to this, but on the alpha exchange, they fall way behind in the damage race, and either Nym or Miranda can deal with the remaining 2 boats solo I think especially given their ability to reposition.

If the 3x Scurrgs are idiot enough to charge in the previous Bomb, they deserve to loose...

Realistically, they will eat one bomb. Then the remaining two can one shot Miranda themself. It is quite easy to get 3 HIT 1 CRIT with deadeye Guidance Chip Scurrg, So Miranda eat 9 dmg there. Sure she can evade 1 and even 2 if she is rather lucky, but if she do not, she is probably dead next turn.

It is all theories, but the match is not that easy for the Nymranda...

I've been hearing that High PS is winning the day vs this bomb happy list.

#MakeEmpireGreat Again

Poe is the answer to the list. Remove TLs, and regen from bomb damage, and higher PS to chase down miranda or nym.

Pow/Low/Jess or Fenn or stress ezra is probably really strong against this list and should be strong against most other lists as well.

Throwing ion cannon turret on a Ghost may win this matchup, then you lose 4 others and end the day 2-4 or something. Its not just about beating this list, its also about beating all other lists as well. Are you gonna do enough damage vs quad wookiees? Can you handle 3 harpoon Nu's? Palp/QD/Inqy? Timewalk Asajj/Dengar or Nym?

7 minutes ago, wurms said:

Poe is the answer to the list. Remove TLs, and regen from bomb damage, and higher PS to chase down miranda or nym.

Pow/Low/Jess or Fenn or stress ezra is probably really strong against this list and should be strong against most other lists as well.

Throwing ion cannon turret on a Ghost may win this matchup, then you lose 4 others and end the day 2-4 or something. Its not just about beating this list, its also about beating all other lists as well. Are you gonna do enough damage vs quad wookiees? Can you handle 3 harpoon Nu's? Palp/QD/Inqy? Timewalk Asajj/Dengar or Nym?

That’s what I was thinking.

PS11 Poe and Han should do ok.

A Ps11 wedge/Fenn/poe would be good too. Wedge would melt probably but there it lots of damage mitigation. No Regen on Poe though...