1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The troops aren't entirely locked down, they still have an action left over after Recovering (is it forced or optional?). With Ion Tokens stacking, the AT-ST would get no actions if it is getting hit by 2+ Ions each turn. Obviously those Rebels make themselves big targets, but each turn the AT-ST is locked down is one less turn it has a chance to "make back" it's points. Any resources used to eliminate the Ion troopers is resources not used to take out something more important, like a Commander. Plus in your example, that's over half the army points tied up with significantly cheaper units, leaving a large amount of point on the Rebel side free to accomplish objectives.

To be able to keep the AT-ST locked down the units with ion would have to take the ready action then the attack action. They don't have any available actions after that thus they are locked down.

1 minute ago, Orcdruid said:

To be able to keep the AT-ST locked down the units with ion would have to take the ready action then the attack action. They don't have any available actions after that thus they are locked down.

But they have the option of "unlocking" themselves, where as the AT-ST does not. The player with the Ion troopers is in control of that situation. Additionally, that assumes there are only 2 squads with Ion, as opposed to 3+. With the ability to split fire the other Rebel troops are still shooting other units, and inflicting damage on the AT-ST and just are not able to Dodge or Aim before shooting. The AT-ST on the other hand, is doing nothing.

Weird, there are major drawbacks to everything, even armored and expensive units. It's like you can't just dump a lot of points into one really good unit and expect to win the game by rushing it into your opponent like a moron. This is a good thing people. This is called balance.

All anyone needs to do to prevent an AT-ST from getting ion locked is to follow the golden rule of armored combat: support your tanks with infantry. A round of incoming fire from stormtroopers will suppress the ion unit, thus reducing their actions to 1 per turn. Now they need to make a tough decision since readying their ion cannon will cost their entire unit activation. Obviously this doesn't account for the myriad of contexts a battle will be fought in, but you get the general concept.

Yep, that’s what I was saying. Unsupported armour can, should, and will die.

Ita not hard to protect it ultimately.

9 minutes ago, Extropia said:

Yep, that’s what I was saying. Unsupported armour can, should, and will die.

Ita not hard to protect it ultimately.

Yeah, seriously.

An AT-ST with a stormtrooper squad armed with an HH-12 will essentially cover all general bases. The infantry handles ion suppression while the AT-ST takes on whatever goal it had in mind. God forbid a rebel player rushes an air speeder head on; between the HH-12's 3 black impact dice, and the AT-ST's 6, impact 3 dice, the speeder might die before the next turn.

I understand that there are ways to counter every counter, however expensive single units reduce the number of units in an army, and therefore reduce the number of suppression tokens that can be thrown out. I presume that the entire reason Ion weapons require a Refresh is to enable a suppression token to be a decent count without requiring the specific model to be removed. Still, the Ion trooper is an interesting "Delay" tactic when dealing with vehicles, for very cheap.

3 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

But they have the option of "unlocking" themselves, where as the AT-ST does not. The player with the Ion troopers is in control of that situation. Additionally, that assumes there are only 2 squads with Ion, as opposed to 3+. With the ability to split fire the other Rebel troops are still shooting other units, and inflicting damage on the AT-ST and just are not able to Dodge or Aim before shooting. The AT-ST on the other hand, is doing nothing.

Yes, I am working under the assumption that there are only 2 ion units attacking the AT-ST. Why? Because I was refuting a claim that they were op. I was showing that there is a price that needs to be paid by the unit to keep its target ionized, that price being immobility.

You are also working an assumption, the assumption that you could get 2 ion tokens onto my AT-ST before it activates, and do this multiple times.

2 hours ago, samus17 said:

Weird, there are major drawbacks to everything, even armored and expensive units. It's like you can't just dump a lot of points into one really good unit and expect to win the game by rushing it into your opponent like a moron. This is a good thing people. This is called balance.

All anyone needs to do to prevent an AT-ST from getting ion locked is to follow the golden rule of armored combat: support your tanks with infantry. A round of incoming fire from stormtroopers will suppress the ion unit, thus reducing their actions to 1 per turn. Now they need to make a tough decision since readying their ion cannon will cost their entire unit activation. Obviously this doesn't account for the myriad of contexts a battle will be fought in, but you get the general concept.

However if a commander is close to the troopers attacking the AT-ST then suppression won't be as useful. Makes for some great skirmishes, and I can't wait.....

Also do we know how an AT-ST gets into melee? Would be funny if an ion cannon trooper unit got into position ready to fire the next round, only for the AT-ST to stomp forward and squish them!!

Just now, Timinater said:

However if a commander is close to the troopers attacking the AT-ST then suppression won't be as useful. Makes for some great skirmishes, and I can't wait.....

Also do we know how an AT-ST gets into melee? Would be funny if an ion cannon trooper unit got into position ready to fire the next round, only for the AT-ST to stomp forward and squish them!!

The commander leadership only applies to falling back, not initial suppression. Even if Luke is right there with his men, they still only need to be shot at once to reduce their action pool to 1. (Although let's face it, if Luke is close to my AT-ST, I'm shooting HIM. That lightsaber is not getting anywhere close to my chicken legs!)

9 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Yes, I am working under the assumption that there are only 2 ion units attacking the AT-ST. Why? Because I was refuting a claim that they were op. I was showing that there is a price that needs to be paid by the unit to keep its target ionized, that price being immobility.

You are also working an assumption, the assumption that you could get 2 ion tokens onto my AT-ST before it activates, and do this multiple times.

Agreed, and I know assumptions are a cornerstone of unit speculation. Both of us are also assuming ideal circumstances for our side (Ha! You can't suppress these units if I suppress your support infantry first!), as frequently happens when trying to determine unit effectiveness without even a full release of the rules. Actual game situations are unlikely to be nearly so cut and dried, and I appreciate that so far this game's rules "enforce" supporting vehicles with infantry. Not every infantry based skirmish game I've seen does as good of a job enforcing that.

It is nice to already be able to see a bit of a rock, paper, scissors interplay, with decent benefits to most of the revealed upgrades. Although so far I can't come up with a reason to take the HH-12 over the DLT-19 (which I almost expect to see stapled on the specialist slot of most Stormtrooper cards just for flexibility).

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It is nice to already be able to see a bit of a rock, paper, scissors interplay, with decent benefits to most of the revealed upgrades. Although so far I can't come up with a reason to take the HH-12 over the DLT-19 (which I almost expect to see stapled on the specialist slot of most Stormtrooper cards just for flexibility).

The HH-12 will be good against armor heavy lists like this one

http://tabletopadmiral.com/legion/rebel/p0auEMuEMuEMp0auEMuEMuEMp01uEMuEMp01uEMuEMp01uEMuEMp04uEMuEMuEMp06uEMuEMuEMuEMp06uEMuEMuEMuEMp06uEMuEMuEMuEM

The idea seems to be that you will take 1-2 aimed shots with it during the game.

The impact 1 on the dlt19 feels more thematic to me than functional. Yes it can push one hit through, but only one. The range makes it feel more like a dmr than a heavy weapon, which will definitely make it a staple.

30 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

The idea seems to be that you will take 1-2 aimed shots with it during the game.

The impact 1 on the dlt19 feels more thematic to me than functional. Yes it can push one hit through, but only one. The range makes it feel more like a dmr than a heavy weapon, which will definitely make it a staple.

That makes more sense. Since Stormtroopers want to aim and fire anyway, the HH-12 does play nicely to that, and then Precise would (I assume) allow for an additional re-roll.

A DLT-19 spam list could fairly consistently get 6 hits on a vehicle each turn, which is fairly respectable. I concur as to it being considered a staple, especially with the units that are currently announced.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

It is nice to already be able to see a bit of a rock, paper, scissors interplay, with decent benefits to most of the revealed upgrades.

While I lack the information as to the cards and rules, I am slowly realising that this game while simple to play has lots of nuances that will make it both tactical and strategically fun to play. The command cards provide a very cleaver tension to each turn as it determines the turn order and how many set activations you can make that turn. Perhaps in one turn you want to try and move a unit late, so playing second and having more set activations is important, then in the next you want to move first.

It also looks like it will take 2-3 hours at first but with time will compress itself into a 1.5-2 hours over time, which is good.

The missions system is interesting and gives each player some control over what happens. There is also a very subtle strategy to it as both players will have to play for and develop the mission they want more than their opponent.

Damage to vehicles may do a critical that while it doesn't destroy the vehicle will dynamically make it less effective. Also, the whole idea that you need to support and cover each unit, which will make overlapping fields of fire, arcs and such all the more interesting. Then throw in a huge variety of terrain, and all those zones now morph and change to make each game somewhat unique. Which will be a nice change to the 6 tiny cardboard blobs you get in Armada or X-Wing.

All in all, the game mechanics don't seem to get in the way of two players sitting down and each doing things to try and improve their position at the cost of their opponents.

Just by the by, does anyone know if the game allows pre-measuring or not?

31 minutes ago, Amanal said:

Just by the by, does anyone know if the game allows pre-measuring or not?

I believe that it was mentioned and it was certainly used during the demos, not that that means much...

Great, thanks for the reply.

If I recall correctly, you can measure at any time with the range ruler, but not with the movement templates.

That would be kind of silly in my opinion, as if I can measure with one measuring device, I can just eyeball it for the others based on previously holding the movement templates next to the range ruler.

True, but the range ruler minimizes the chances of moving minis out of place because of base interactions with the templates. Sure, you might be able to squeeze through that gap with a speed 2 template, but you won't know until you try.

If it's like armada, you aren't committed to a movement until you pick up the model, so it's not like you can't change the clicks (or direction for infantry) prior to movement, which is very similar to pre-measuring.

On 16/01/2018 at 4:51 AM, Caimheul1313 said:

That's the most infuriating part of some wargames I've played, having a reasonable option for anti-armor weaponry, but it has a huge opportunity cost because of forced targeting.

However, with the way Impact is worded, rolling more dice increases the likelihood of getting X number of hits (X being the Impact value), meaning for once a larger pool isn't a terrible thing.

I agree the that DTL-19 seems in many ways better, as it still has the Impact keyword, better minimum range, and no movement restrictions. I will hold judgment on the Z-6 vs Ion until I see the rules on Ion tokens.

You can’t roll different weapons attack pool together. So if u roll 1 hit with a hh12 and 2 hits w a trooper, the hh12 impact 3 only converts 1 hit from its own attack pool

12 minutes ago, tieren said:

You can’t roll different weapons attack pool together. So if u roll 1 hit with a hh12 and 2 hits w a trooper, the hh12 impact 3 only converts 1 hit from its own attack pool

so where does that leave impact grenades? impact x number of dice?

28 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

so where does that leave impact grenades? impact x number of dice?

Yeah, thats my guess. Makes sense, and works with the wording in the Weiss article stating that Keywords stack (ie, Arsenal 2 and Arsenal 2 gives the AT Arsenal 4).

46 minutes ago, Extropia said:

Yeah, thats my guess. Makes sense, and works with the wording in the Weiss article stating that Keywords stack (ie, Arsenal 2 and Arsenal 2 gives the AT Arsenal 4).

Hmmm, new tactic..... snowtrooper suicide naders' ....... load multiple units up with ion and impacts, then bum rush the armor 2 units have the potential to drop anything the rebs have in a turn, and even without the blast keyword of concussions it's still a pita vs the support

15 minutes ago, Ralgon said:

Hmmm, new tactic..... snowtrooper suicide naders' ....... load multiple units up with ion and impacts, then bum rush the armor 2 units have the potential to drop anything the rebs have in a turn, and even without the blast keyword of concussions it's still a pita vs the support

It'd be good against AT-RT's, but right now i don't think the grenades would be usable against a T-47 due to its immunity to Blast.

Possibly that just means the Blast keyword does nothing, but i suspect it'll mean immunity to weapons with Blast entirely. It makes sense...throwing grenades at an airspeeder sounds tricky to say the least.

5 hours ago, tieren said:

You can’t roll different weapons attack pool together. So if u roll 1 hit with a hh12 and 2 hits w a trooper, the hh12 impact 3 only converts 1 hit from its own attack pool

So you have the rules then?

3 hours ago, Extropia said:

It'd be good against AT-RT's, but right now i don't think the grenades would be usable against a T-47 due to its immunity to Blast.

Possibly that just means the Blast keyword does nothing, but i suspect it'll mean immunity to weapons with Blast entirely. It makes sense...throwing grenades at an airspeeder sounds tricky to say the least.

Impact grenades don't have blast they have impact. The concussion grenades in the core are the ones with blast.