It's pretty sad, really. It seems as though the only way that Disney could think of building up the new characters was by tearing the old ones down.

Han and Leia, a love story across three films, ends in estrangement, divorce and patricide. Luke, the most hopeful and optimistic character in the galaxy becomes a failure and a bitter, jaded, reclusive loner.

What's worse is the build 'em up by knocking 'em down approach didn't work. There's almost zero chemistry or character development amongst the new cast; like most things modern, they're shallow, plastic, unrelatable caricatures.

Han, Leia and Luke were among the best parts of both The Force Awkaens and The Last Jedi. Harrison Ford, Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were the heart and soul of the franchise, and they proved even with their advanced years they can bring that magic to the series. I've said it elsewhere, but I can understand killing off Han (Harrison Ford probably made it a condition of his appearance). I could even understand losing Leia (due to the sad passing of Carrie Fisher), but to lose Luke as well - when Mark Hamill obviously loves the character, the series and playing the role of Luke - is absolutely unforgivable. Especially under the circumstances shown in The Last Jedi.

And especially so if Mark himself wasn't aware that it was going to happen (and I'm not convinced he was).

Oh please grow up a little.

Star Wars is a phenomenon, and NOTHING can ruin it. The OT is its own complete story, and that's it. It doesn't matter for me how many times I see it, I still like it. Does it still have the magic when I first watched it as a child? Maybe not anymore, but I can still appreciate everything that's good about it. It doesn't matter what will the sequels do to the canon timeline of events, the OT is firmly cemented as the greatest fantasy space adventure ever made.

I don't know why people get overly sensitive and saying the sequel trilogy touched their childhoods inappropriately. It's like prequel fans saying the OT ruined Obi-Wan and Yoda. Makes no sense to me.

Disney doesn't ruin Star Wars. People who overscrutinize, overrationalize and overpoliticize a silly B-movie flick about space wizards ruin Star Wars.

3 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

There's almost zero chemistry or character development amongst the new cast; like most things modern, they're shallow, plastic, unrelatable caricatures.

I respectfully disagree. Poe is taking steps towards becoming a leader, while realizing that currently he's not very good at it. Kylo is showing a lot more depth to his character, and could easily go either way between depravity or redemption. Rey is learning that there's more to the Force than just going in and hacking up everything with a lightsaber. And Finn is very close to learning that hitting on every pretty girl in the galaxy is just going to lead to trouble for all involved.

I'm not saying the new movies are perfect, but I still find them much more solid entries than any of the prequels, personally.

5 hours ago, patox said:

100% spot on. Talking it over with a friend, it really feels like whoever is writing the Disneyverse stuff really hated the original movies.

1 hour ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

Disney doesn't ruin Star Wars. People who overscrutinize, overrationalize and overpoliticize a silly B-movie flick about space wizards ruin Star Wars.

That's a pretty good description of what Disney has done if you ask me.

1 hour ago, Alpha17 said:

100% spot on. Talking it over with a friend, it really feels like whoever is writing the Disneyverse stuff really hated the original movies.

The "Disneyverse" stuff is either written or supervised by the same people who stood by Lucas when he was doing the original movies. I think if they would view the new stories as detrimental or disrespectful to Star Wars, they wouldn't let it fly.

Quote

That's a pretty good description of what Disney has done if you ask me.

I don't know, I don't hear Disney people trying to boycott a movie for having one black protagonist, or complaining that there is a "SJW-gender-study-witch" character because she had purple hair in the movie.

What I do hear more often, is people criticising story elements stating "it doesn't work that way", as if they were the ones who make up the rules.

According to some people, the whole concept of a sequel would ruin the OT. Unless you don't expect Star WARS to have a war in it...

This has been the consensus for almost twenty years.

46 minutes ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

The "Disneyverse" stuff is either written or supervised by the same people who stood by Lucas when he was doing the original movies. I think if they would view the new stories as detrimental or disrespectful to Star Wars, they wouldn't let it fly.

Right. The thing to remember is that the people making the movies are trying to make good Star Wars movies while still adding their own touches. This is perfectly well and good, as trying to completely imitate another person's directing/writing/acting seldom works well. Some people may not like some of the new feel, but that doesn't mean the people are out to actively destroy Star Wars. Even in the EU, you had books that some people thought were great additions that really expanded the Star Wars universe while others felt those same books were travesties that would have Lucas rolling over in his grave...if he were dead, that is.

If people don't like the movies, that's fine, but let's analyze them for what they are rather than for supposed, underhanded motivations of the production team.

I'd change that to

General

Father

Hero

I think they don't appreciate how much of our childhood was in these characters. ANH was the first movie I saw in the theater. I was 5. Harrison Ford clearly did not want to be in the next chapter. And Luke would die at some point in the last 3. But we all would've like to see it end differently. The way Luke's character was in TLJ just wasn't Luke. I do think they have a chance to salvage this tho. There seemed to be some glimmer of hope at the end of TLJ. We need an episode 9 that hits a homerun with Luke's forceghost and LEia (however they manage to pull that one off), leading to victory. Most likely we will get Leia getting killed off off screen in the first scene and Luke nowhere to be found and it being Poe and Rey and Finn leading the way. I do like their on screen chemistry. It is better than anything in the prequels.

Shifting the lens of this conversation to another SW story, Rogue One: I would argue R1 drastically improved ANH. The desperation of the Rebels when destroying the Death Star is amplified by the events shown in R1. ANH now finishes in a high risk, last ditch effort to defeat the empire. A loss at Yavin 4 is the end of the Rebellion. Yes, this has always been the case but now that feeling of desperation is much more prominent and evident.

2 hours ago, Trghpu1994 said:

I think they don't appreciate how much of our childhood was in these characters.

No arguments here, but how the heck can you compete against nostalgia. There is a tonne of research showing how we look back at the good old days with such nostalgic fondness. Trump utilised this psychology in his campaign when he kept referring to the "good old days". The way we remember memories is constantly distorted. By recalling a memory of the past, you are remembering it as your brain has chosen to distort it, not by the actuality of its events (source). Therefore, each of us shares a varied, modified and personal experience when considering the Original Trilogy.

How can you compete with that?

By extension, The OT gave us hooks into the universe for us to invest in at an emotional level. Eg, "That bounty hunter we ran into at Ord Mandell ...". What? What happened? We, the viewer, fill that back story ourselves. We create a little story with minimal details, but it is our story. It is a story relevant and exciting to us. It is a story that adheres to our version of the SW canon. We have now created a small part of the universe, we own that, we have become emotionally invested in this universe because some of it is ours.

The prequels took this away from us. They did not give us to opportunity to participate. On the contrary, it de-authenticated our own stories.

I think this new trilogy is bringing some of this personal emotional investment back. What happened to Kylo? Why has Luke seemingly shut himself off from the force and given up? What's the full story behind Han and Leia's amicable split (separation is very real to a lot of mature aged audience - who experienced the original trilogy)?

These hooks give us the opportunity to own part of the universe again.

Finally, this is why I argue that OT characters are now more interesting off-screen. I do not want to see a Han Solo, Boba Fett or ObiWan movie. Leave them with us as they are. It's a big universe, show us more stories and characters from within it and stop breaking down our own emotional ties to the existing franchise.

2 hours ago, Conandoodle said:

Shifting the lens of this conversation to another SW story, Rogue One: I would argue R1 drastically improved ANH. The desperation of the Rebels when destroying the Death Star is amplified by the events shown in R1. ANH now finishes in a high risk, last ditch effort to defeat the empire. A loss at Yavin 4 is the end of the Rebellion. Yes, this has always been the case but now that feeling of desperation is much more prominent and evident.

Totally agree with this; Disney delivered with Rogue One, which makes it all the more exasperating to me that they've struggled so much (story-wise) with the sequel trilogy. There doesn't seem to be a clear strategy or outline for the sequels (other than killing off the original cast, that is). Rogue One adds depth and detail to the Star Wars franchise, so far the sequels haver only really taken away... which brings me to this:

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I'm not saying the new movies are perfect, but I still find them much more solid entries than any of the prequels, personally.

...I respectfully disagree. Now, I'm no big fan of the prequels. There was a lot of stupid trash in them (Midichlorians, Jar-Jar, Spinning Being A Good Trick, Jar-Jar, Uncomfortable Unconvincing Romances, Jar-Jar...) but at the same time, they delivered a competent story arcing through three films and carrying on into the Original Trilogy. And they did it without (for the most part) crapping all over the events and characters of the Original Trilogy and rendering the events in them null and void.

Now, a sequel series was always going to be a big ask, but - story wise - Disney have completely blown it so far. Not that they'll care too mucn, considering how much money they're making regardless...

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Totally agree with this; Disney delivered with Rogue One, which makes it all the more exasperating to me that they've struggled so much (story-wise) with the sequel trilogy. There doesn't seem to be a clear strategy or outline for the sequels (other than killing off the original cast, that is). Rogue One adds depth and detail to the Star Wars franchise, so far the sequels haver only really taken away... which brings me to this:

...I respectfully disagree. Now, I'm no big fan of the prequels. There was a lot of stupid trash in them (Midichlorians, Jar-Jar, Spinning Being A Good Trick, Jar-Jar, Uncomfortable Unconvincing Romances, Jar-Jar...) but at the same time, they delivered a competent story arcing through three films and carrying on into the Original Trilogy. And they did it without (for the most part) crapping all over the events and characters of the Original Trilogy and rendering the events in them null and void.

Now, a sequel series was always going to be a big ask, but - story wise - Disney have completely blown it so far. Not that they'll care too mucn, considering how much money they're making regardless...

They haven't had any over arching plans for the sequel trilogy. Rian Johnson has said in interviews that he had free reign to write whatever he wanted to. And because of that the new trilogy feels sort of a mixed bag on pacing and overall story. ANH to ROTJ had a clear arc with its set up, and TPM to ROTS was planned out at least story wise with an arc.

58 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

They haven't had any over arching plans for the sequel trilogy. Rian Johnson has said in interviews that he had free reign to write whatever he wanted to. And because of that the new trilogy feels sort of a mixed bag on pacing and overall story. ANH to ROTJ had a clear arc with its set up, and TPM to ROTS was planned out at least story wise with an arc.

I think this is the issue when you change directors. HOw do you decide on a trilogy and not have a story arc? I still think there is a chance to salvage it. I need to watch TLJ again. I have only been able to see it once

20 minutes ago, Trghpu1994 said:

I think this is the issue when you change directors. HOw do you decide on a trilogy and not have a story arc? I still think there is a chance to salvage it. I need to watch TLJ again. I have only been able to see it once

Because Disney wanted to jump their franchise in action after spending 4 billion dollars on it? The issue isn't changing directors either, the OT films all had different directions, though one could make the argument that Lucas was effectively controlling/directing ROTJ. But unlike Marvel where they had Kevin Feige to direct the ship, and the OT and PT with planned out arcs or ideas for it the ST started with a soft reboot since it was safe and are now trying to figure out what all they want to do with it. And clearly Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams had different visions on stuff. They could salvage this and make the trilogy work, but I think they have a bit of an uphill battle with how things were left. But who knows maybe the imperial remnants will join up with the Resistance and then we get a OT vs ST battle with classic ISDs vs the FO's SDs.

8 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

crapping all over the events and characters of the Original Trilogy and rendering the events in them null and void.

This is a popular argument against the sequels, and I can kinda understand it, but not completely. Fighting for a better world is one thing, keeping it better is another. This is like saying all the efforts of WW1 soldiers were null and void, because look at what happened 20 years later. Okay, the victories of the original cast did not last forever apparently, but nothing lasts forever at all.

Let me quote a certain fantasy book series about heroes facing recurring evil throughout the ages:

Quote

It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.

Even assuming the absolute worst, the Rebellion did bring 30 years of peace to the Galaxy, which is already more than what the Empire achieved.

No they didn't they abandoned most world's to fend for themselves against pirates and criminal cartels.

6 hours ago, Captain Pellaeon said:

This is a popular argument against the sequels, and I can kinda understand it, but not completely. Fighting for a better world is one thing, keeping it better is another. This is like saying all the efforts of WW1 soldiers were null and void, because look at what happened 20 years later. Okay, the victories of the original cast did not last forever apparently, but nothing lasts forever at all.

I would agree in principle, but you can't really compare the events as depicted in film to historical events. We can look back at the events following WW1 and preceding WW2 and see exactly why the world decended back into open warfare; in the films, we have no idea. In The Force Awakens, we're essentially told "the Empire is gone, now the First Order is here instead. Deal with it.". The Last Jedi goes even further, essentially resetting the franchise back to Rebels episode one - the First Order are in the ascendancy, and there's one ship full of plucky upstarts fighting against them, and that's it.

In The Force Awakens it was troublesome as we were presented with the situation and given very few answers. Who are the First Order? Where did the come from? How did they rise to Empire-level power? Who is Snoke? Where did he come from? What is (sorry, was) the New Republic? Why did they not listen to Leia? Where did Luke go, and why? Why did Ben Solo become Kylo Ren? Who are the Knights of Ren? And on, and on.. and to an extent, this was forgivable in the first film, as we expected the events, characters and story to be fleshed out in the sequel. But for the most part, they weren't. Questions raised were skipped past or completely ignored, and the new series universe is shallower as a result.

"Show, don't tell" - that's the cinematography maxim, right? We could have been shown the New Republic. We could have seen the galaxy at peace. We could have been shown Leia's warnings about the First Order being dismissed. We could have built the First Order up as a shadowy threat, appearing on the fringes first before revealing more and more of their power, instead of having them just appear. We could have been shown Luke's academy, his failure with Ben and Ben being twisted to the dark side by Snoke. It really wouldn't have taken much. Instead, they played it safe when writing The Force Awakens and went for an almost scene-by-scene remapping of A New Hope.

People were expecting to compare The Last Jedi to The Empire Strikes back, but watch the latter back and in terms of story, character development and world building, there IS no comparison. The new series is rushed, it's thoughless, it's heedless of practically everything that's come before it.

8 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

In The Force Awakens, we're essentially told "the Empire is gone, now the First Order is here instead. Deal with it.". The Last Jedi goes even further, essentially resetting the franchise back to Rebels episode one - the First Order are in the ascendancy, and there's one ship full of plucky upstarts fighting against them, and that's it.

In The Force Awakens it was troublesome as we were presented with the situation and given very few answers. Who are the First Order? Where did the come from? How did they rise to Empire-level power? Who is Snoke? Where did he come from? What is (sorry, was) the New Republic? Why did they not listen to Leia? Where did Luke go, and why? Why did Ben Solo become Kylo Ren? Who are the Knights of Ren? And on, and on.. and to an extent, this was forgivable in the first film, as we expected the events, characters and story to be fleshed out in the sequel. But for the most part, they weren't. Questions raised were skipped past or completely ignored, and the new series universe is shallower as a result.

"Show, don't tell" - that's the cinematography maxim, right? We could have been shown the New Republic. We could have seen the galaxy at peace. We could have been shown Leia's warnings about the First Order being dismissed. We could have built the First Order up as a shadowy threat, appearing on the fringes first before revealing more and more of their power, instead of having them just appear. We could have been shown Luke's academy, his failure with Ben and Ben being twisted to the dark side by Snoke. It really wouldn't have taken much. Instead, they played it safe when writing The Force Awakens and went for an almost scene-by-scene remapping of A New Hope.

People were expecting to compare The Last Jedi to The Empire Strikes back, but watch the latter back and in terms of story, character development and world building, there IS no comparison. The new series is rushed, it's thoughless, it's heedless of practically everything that's come before it.

I agree, that TFA did a poor job at setting up the world. I don't know if that was purposeful, so the comics/books/games can fill in the blanks, or just lazy writing. But then again, if you get half an hour or more in a movie which is nothing but constant exposition, that's also a bad thing, right? And since there is a lot to tell, those answers need time. I'm actually happy that TLJ answered a few of the questions left open in TFA, but not all of them. This raises the expectations for Ep9.

A lot of questions simply has to be answered by the new canon EU material, due to the franchise nature of Star Wars. You could see signs of it in the prequels too - the time gap between the movies were large and eventful, and each new installment presented a bunch of new characters, factions and events we had no idea about. A lot of people were curious what happened with Obi-Wan and Anakin in the ten years between TPM and AotC, then in the 4 years between AotC and RotS. Just remember the opening shot of RotS. The first time I saw it, I had no idea who's with who, why do the ships have no shields, who's the couging robot guy, how did they capture Palpatine if the battle is only in space, etc. All of those were for the TV shows, books, comics, other things to tell. This isn't particularly good, but this is pretty much how franchises work.

The OT is its whole well-told story, but even that didn't explain everything, made mentions of previous events and characters we didn't know, all left to be told by the EU. I think that after the sequel trilogy is completed, we'll be able to judge it accurately for what it's worth, but not sooner, really.

I will say that one thing I liked was that TLJ actually seems to understand "balance" a bit better than the prequels, and I'm intrigued to see where they'll go with that idea in the last movie (Gray Jedi?).

In the prequels, it was more like:

Jedi 1: So apparently this Anakin guy was prophesied to bring balance to the Force.

Jedi 2: There's, like, a million Jedi and two Sith. How is he going to balance that?

Jedi 1: I guess he'll probably, I don't know, destroy the Sith. That's gotta involve balance, right?

Jedi 2: Sounds great! Anyway, I need to drop my younglings off at the Temple and then get back to the war. I hear Palpatine's going to be issuing a new order to all the clone troops, and I don't want to miss it!

2 hours ago, JJ48 said:

I will say that one thing I liked was that TLJ actually seems to understand "balance" a bit better than the prequels, and I'm intrigued to see where they'll go with that idea in the last movie (Gray Jedi?).

In the prequels, it was more like:

Jedi 1: So apparently this Anakin guy was prophesied to bring balance to the Force.

Jedi 2: There's, like, a million Jedi and two Sith. How is he going to balance that?

Jedi 1: I guess he'll probably, I don't know, destroy the Sith. That's gotta involve balance, right?

Jedi 2: Sounds great! Anyway, I need to drop my younglings off at the Temple and then get back to the war. I hear Palpatine's going to be issuing a new order to all the clone troops, and I don't want to miss it!

The new movies are just as full of plot holes.

Rey(TFA) The force is real and Jedi are real!?

Rey(TLJ) Its only been a week I'm a master of the force now

The part that bothers me the most about the most recent movie was how the timing ofevents was handled.....in that there was only the most flimisy of yeah all of this happens in the span of a couple hours. Even though Chewie and Rey spend a couple days on the planet Luke is on.

Also clearly Chewie not getting enough screen time, and Since its out with the old in with the new I bet he dies in the next movie.

7 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

I would agree in principle, but you can't really compare the events as depicted in film to historical events. We can look back at the events following WW1 and preceding WW2 and see exactly why the world decended back into open warfare; in the films, we have no idea. In The Force Awakens, we're essentially told "the Empire is gone, now the First Order is here instead. Deal with it.". The Last Jedi goes even further, essentially resetting the franchise back to Rebels episode one - the First Order are in the ascendancy, and there's one ship full of plucky upstarts fighting against them, and that's it.

In The Force Awakens it was troublesome as we were presented with the situation and given very few answers. Who are the First Order? Where did the come from? How did they rise to Empire-level power? Who is Snoke? Where did he come from? What is (sorry, was) the New Republic? Why did they not listen to Leia? Where did Luke go, and why? Why did Ben Solo become Kylo Ren? Who are the Knights of Ren? And on, and on.. and to an extent, this was forgivable in the first film, as we expected the events, characters and story to be fleshed out in the sequel. But for the most part, they weren't. Questions raised were skipped past or completely ignored, and the new series universe is shallower as a result.

"Show, don't tell" - that's the cinematography maxim, right? We could have been shown the New Republic. We could have seen the galaxy at peace. We could have been shown Leia's warnings about the First Order being dismissed. We could have built the First Order up as a shadowy threat, appearing on the fringes first before revealing more and more of their power, instead of having them just appear. We could have been shown Luke's academy, his failure with Ben and Ben being twisted to the dark side by Snoke. It really wouldn't have taken much. Instead, they played it safe when writing The Force Awakens and went for an almost scene-by-scene remapping of A New Hope.

People were expecting to compare The Last Jedi to The Empire Strikes back, but watch the latter back and in terms of story, character development and world building, there IS no comparison. The new series is rushed, it's thoughless, it's heedless of practically everything that's come before it.

This.

5 hours ago, RedSkull said:

The new movies are just as full of plot holes.

Rey(TFA) The force is real and Jedi are real!?

Rey(TLJ) Its only been a week I'm a master of the force now

The part that bothers me the most about the most recent movie was how the timing ofevents was handled.....in that there was only the most flimisy of yeah all of this happens in the span of a couple hours. Even though Chewie and Rey spend a couple days on the planet Luke is on.

Also clearly Chewie not getting enough screen time, and Since its out with the old in with the new I bet he dies in the next movie.

It is possible that the planet they were on has shorter days with only hour long days. Though that just makes it worse when you consider you point from before.

Rey (TFA) The force is real and Jedi are real!?

Rey (TLJ) It has been two or three days and I'm better at the force than anyone whoever spent their life training and studying it! Wooo Girl power go!

I wish that Rey was given any of the care that went into making Ahsoka great.