So, if you think all is perfect, there is no need for any changes, whether large or small, this post is not for you. Have a great one.

If you think that relay alters the game in a negative way, here is a possible fix.

Dras can do wording better, but the essence is to change relay such that benefits from the ship activating the squads don't pass through relay.

Therefore, Yavaris, Adar, etc. Can activate squads through relay, but don't give the normal benefit.

Thoughts? Too much? Too difficult to track?

I still like the idea that the squadron relaying the command has to be in normal activation range of the ship issuing the command.

Just now, themightyhedgehog said:

I still like the idea that the squadron relaying the command has to be in normal activation range of the ship issuing the command.

That was the way I assumed the thing worked when it was revealed. I was quite surprised to learn otherwise.

"Any squadron activated this way cannot be affected by upgrades attached to the ship that performed the Squadron command."

I'm not 100% on the language, but I wad trying to keep from being multiple paragraphs.

3 minutes ago, themightyhedgehog said:

I still like the idea that the squadron relaying the command has to be in normal activation range of the ship issuing the command.

I think this should be a thing. It wouldn't effect many experienced players. VCXs are surprisingly tough to kill.

5 minutes ago, themightyhedgehog said:

I still like the idea that the squadron relaying the command has to be in normal activation range of the ship issuing the command.

This is exactly how I think it should act. You have to be in normal communication range, and the command gets passed on to something outside communication range.

That said, this could cause squad play to last even longer as people ensure their placements and measurements that much more carefully.

The thing is you don't even need relay with yvaris, it's already very powerful...in fact I'd wager that watering down your 134 with 2-3vcx just so you can uber long range yvaris is probably worse that just putting those points in b wings or better squad upgrades

5 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

The thing is you don't even need relay with yvaris, it's already very powerful...in fact I'd wager that watering down your 134 with 2-3vcx just so you can uber long range yvaris is probably worse that just putting those points in b wings or better squad upgrades

Have tried, can confirm.

Just do two generic intels instead.

4 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

The thing is you don't even need relay with yvaris, it's already very powerful...in fact I'd wager that watering down your 134 with 2-3vcx just so you can uber long range yvaris is probably worse that just putting those points in b wings or better squad upgrades

See you'd think so, but being able to keep Yavaris safe can often result in several extra turns of bombing after a Yavaris that was forced into the fight would normally go down. I've found 2 VCX's to be the sweet spot. They are great for going after targets with counter too as they can soak the hits with 8 hull/Jan

You just approach it a little differently if you bring 2 VCXs instead of investing that 30 points in more burst throughput. The VCX version is a more finesse list with stronger performance in an attrition fight and much stronger objectives, whereas the no-VCX version can hit harder and is more resilient on the squadron side, but struggles in high-level play unless you diversify your list to get a strong yellow * and blue **.

* Fighter Ambush hurts your deployment curve in most fleets, particularly without Relay providing positioning flexibility

** Superior Positions is not bad, but it best rewards large numbers of fast bombers that are untethered from their carriers either by Rogue or Relay, neither of which model synergizes well with Yavaris , with a few exceptions

If they took the community feedback and applied the restricted that the Relay squadron must be in normal communications range, that might make Boosted Comms see more play. I used to like that card but since Relay exists there's so little reason to use it now.

I like the idea of the squadron doing the relaying needing to be in range of the ship doing the activating. Still extends the range quite a bit.

2 minutes ago, Dosiere said:

I like the idea of the squadron doing the relaying needing to be in range of the ship doing the activating. Still extends the range quite a bit.

Agreed and maybe the Centicore Title would see more play.

24 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

If they took the community feedback and applied the restricted that the Relay squadron must be in normal communications range, that might make Boosted Comms see more play. I used to like that card but since Relay exists there's so little reason to use it now.

In this scenario, Boosted Comms + Relay would give you distance 8. That is really quite a ways.

You would have to decide whether or not you could relay could stack. Cuz then you could either relay to relay, or just stop it at one.

I'm kinda torn about this one.

There's a part of me that see's the OP's point and could understand a slight change, after all, the key word is Relay , which implies information being passed not teleported , but I guess I'm having a hard time seeing the need .

Over extending your squads without ship support just seems like a really bad idea. (We don't have a Poe ace yet after all lol). Even with Adar and Yavaris and the other combos mentioned, over extending means the opponent has free range to chew up a squadron ball as they see fit, without much if any threat from ships. To me, this means ships can invest ship attacks into AA at no loss. There's no disadvantage to doing so. A couple of Flotillas and a dedicated AA and suddenly those over extended squads are just free points to rack up?

I suppose the questions that have kept me on the fence are:

1.) Has relay "abuse" actually flooded any metas? (Local, Regional, National, Worlds/EU?)
2.) Is it powerful enough to merit restricting it? (IE: Does it require a hard counter to defeat?)

As far as I can tell, which may not mean anything, this seems like a change that is catered to help fleets that don't want to invest in squadrons, or players that don't like playing squadron heavy matches.

(I cannot believe I'm on THIS side of the discussion, last year I'd have been riding the "kill all squadron advantages" train hard lol).

Gozers and yav hiding in the back is the big issue people have

Please, no changes to Relay. There are one of only a few cards that encourage separation of pieces (Relay, Mauler, Mandalorian Fighters?), lessening the painful management of massive clutter in a small area on the map. It's a huge difference when at least one player has enough relay to have squads not clumped up around all their ships.

They really should just BURN the Gallant Haven card, the worst cause of ship & squad clutter!

57 minutes ago, Crabbok said:

If they took the community feedback and applied the restricted that the Relay squadron must be in normal communications range, that might make Boosted Comms see more play. I used to like that card but since Relay exists there's so little reason to use it now.

For some lists. It really depends on where your squads are going to be when you activate them. If they are usually going to be within long range of a ship, Boosted Comms is the better option in every case except where Strategic is useful.

When I heard relay was coming, I also saw it working by the relay squad needing to be in range of the command ship, but I also imagined it with limit to the number of squads relayed. And even with that I was still thinking it would be too awkward to use.

I can see a case for not passing along buffs like Flight Controllers and Yavaris like effects. But if you just add that the command ship needs to be in range or the relay squad, I think you don't reduce relay, you kill it.

7 minutes ago, Thraug said:

Please, no changes to Relay. There are one of only a few cards that encourage separation of pieces (Relay, Mauler, Mandalorian Fighters?), lessening the painful management of massive clutter in a small area on the map. It's a huge difference when at least one player has enough relay to have squads not clumped up around all their ships.

They really should just BURN the Gallant Haven card, the worst cause of ship & squad clutter!

Perhaps I could interest you in a set clutter management reducers? ;D

*cough cough*

27 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

1.) Has relay "abuse" actually flooded any metas? (Local, Regional, National, Worlds/EU?)

I honestly have only run into it online. That said, my main issue with it is that it falls into the same category as Lifeboats before the flotilla nerf. With practically no downsides, you can set your fleet on opposite sides of the mat to prevent the possibility of getting tabled, while still having those ships fully participate in the match. I'm fine with dropping a flotilla off away from everything to prevent a tabling. I get frustrated with dealing with a full power squadron pusher 3 to 6 feet away from the battle.

That said, if you're willing to focus your fire on their Relay squad, you can remove their ability to participate from across the map. But with 6-8 hull and their squadron buddies, that is easier said than done.

As a side note: Relay would be great and my issue with it would be completely resolved with it if flotillas were FAQ'd to not count toward preventing tabling. That's another discussion that has been had many times elsewhere though.

As a side side note (a back note?): These are actually small qualms I have with things. I really enjoy the game, and relay/flotillas aren't truly "breaking" the game for me.

Honestly, I'd just go with having to relay to ships in range. It makes sense within the context of the games mechanics, and sure, you could probably stack it, but that would actually require some risk management to get where we are now anyways. After all, the main concern here is the lack of limits on this ability, allowing you to be comparatively thoughtless with it. Comparatively. It's not that there are no countermeasures as is.

Even with the slightest range limitation itcan now be more easily disrupted, relay ships can more easily end up in risky positions, some nice cards get a little boost, and the mechanic still works as intended. It just stops potential openings with an entire bomber fleet across the table of your officers and other such fringe cases.

Let the capital ships instruct a fighter coordination team aboard a shuttle within its normal comms range, and you're golden.

2 hours ago, Astrodar said:

With practically no downsides,

1. if your relay gets knocked out, your relay from across the table game plan is wrecked and you probably lose the squad game from there.

2. engaging your squads away from your ships throws away the benefit of added AA firepower, which can easily turn the battle.

3. bringing relay(s) waters down your 134

4. activating 1-4 squads at a time leaves vulnerable to 5-6 squad alpha strikes, where they get the bulk of their firepower in, before you can get all yours in, thus minimizing return fire.

There are downsides, they are many, and they are highly significant.

We need anti-force multiplying cards. Anti clump up in this section of the board effects.

Wide Area Barrage is okay, but its not that great. More.

53 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

1. if your relay gets knocked out, your relay from across the table game plan is wrecked and you probably lose the squad game from there.

2. engaging your squads away from your ships throws away the benefit of added AA firepower, which can easily turn the battle.

3. bringing relay(s) waters down your 134

4. activating 1-4 squads at a time leaves vulnerable to 5-6 squad alpha strikes, where they get the bulk of their firepower in, before you can get all yours in, thus minimizing return fire.

There are downsides, they are many, and they are highly significant.

1. I'm not sure if you stopped reading, but:

4 hours ago, Astrodar said:

That said, if you're willing to focus your fire on their Relay squad, you can remove their ability to participate from across the map.

However, these are not easy to take out. You're looking at 6-8 hull on a plain, old, boring Relay squad, which is generally going to be 3 to 5 attacks spent on that alone. Top that off with being in range to make these attacks generally means you are very much in range of all of your opponents squads. These flotillas are not your main carriers, which I'll address below.

2. I completely agree. Thus the "practically".

3. Bringing Jendon along really waters down your 134. It definitely doesn't help that he allows your most opportunistic heavy hitter take a second shot. Also those braces definitely make it easier to kill him and remove relay. As for Rebels, I completely agree (ignoring Strategic). They are expensive for what they can do, and you only get Relay 1. That said, I'm not seeing Rebel fleets push squads like this.

4. I'm usually seeing these "out of game" flotillas used to mop up squadron activations. I'm seeing big hitter ships and carriers activate early to do the most damage. Then these flotillas activate later on to push the left-over squads. So I completely agree with your statement, but I'm seeing ISDs activate 5 squads to alpha strike before these flotillas come into play. By the time Relay is gone, there are usually casualties on both sides. At that point it doesn't matter if your flotilla can't push a couple squads, because your main carrier is still helping to control the squad game.

I'm going to reiterate as well:

4 hours ago, Astrodar said:

These are actually small qualms I have with things. I really enjoy the game, and relay/flotillas aren't truly "breaking" the game for me.