Rat Ogres & Clan Rats

By Boofus, in Warhammer Invasion Rules Questions

Okay, I have the official answer from James, which clears the beginning of turn stuff up a whole lot for me.

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There are a few important things to keep in mind.

First is that response actions that trigger "At the beginning of your turn" must be played during that timing window if you want to use them. That is the only restriction in that regard. You do not have to trigger them first or anything like that.

Second, it is also important to know that an action window does not close until both players pass the action window in succession. (Example: At the beginning of the turn, you trigger the Clan Rats action. It resolves. I pass on triggering any actions. You then get an opportunity to trigger another action in this window. If you pass on triggering any actions, the window is closed.)

Third, once a stack begins to resolve, then there is no opportunity to play additional actions until after that stack has completely resolved.

Finally, units do not restore until the Kingdom Phase.

So, for your example.

You can first trigger the clan rat's action to give a power to a rat ogre.

Then, once that action has resolved. You may in the same window then trigger the rat ogre's action. (restore all corrupted skaven units)

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the clan rat's action again to give a power to a rat ogre.

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the second rat ogre's action. (Restore all corrupted skaven units).

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the clan rat's action again to give a power to a rat ogre.

So, you can trigger the clan rats 3 times in that action window.

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So yeah, when you have an optional "at beginning of turn" action, you can play it any time in the action window before the Kingdom phase.

Also note that he confirmed what we thought about how the stack resolves - i.e. once it starts resolving, you can't play additional actions till the whole thing resolves.

For all the naysayers out there who fret about the inconsistency of FFG rulings, I asked the same question and got the same answer. gran_risa.gif

Thank you Clamatius. This was the way I was playing anyhow, but send this to James to be sure along with some other questions. Then I read your post. Poor James...

I'm a bloody newbie, so please be patient with me. I have not quite understand Jame's ruling:

Clamatius said:

So, for your example.

You can first trigger the clan rat's action to give a power to a rat ogre.

Then, once that action has resolved. You may in the same window then trigger the rat ogre's action. (restore all corrupted skaven units)

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the clan rat's action again to give a power to a rat ogre.

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the second rat ogre's action. (Restore all corrupted skaven units).

Once that has resolved. You may trigger the clan rat's action again to give a power to a rat ogre.

So, you can trigger the clan rats 3 times in that action window.

Why is it allowed to play the clan rat's action again but not the rat ogre's action again? Why do I have to use the second rat ogre for another uncorrupting action?

You can play the Clan Rat's ability as many times as you want in the same turn, as long as you have a way of uncorrupting it.

Each Rat Ogre can only use its ability once per turn (go look up the official FAQ for that one).

Edit: Thanks for your kind explanation.

Sorry, to bring back the old topic, but is my understanding correct that after FAQ 1.4 and its Triggered Actions definition and timing, the only possible way to play the situation out would be:

  1. The start of the turn happens and trigger condition for both ogres A and ogres B is fulfilled
  2. Any constant/triggered effects are resolved
  3. Action Window starts
  4. Ogres controller chooses to put the Triggered Action from ogres A into the chain
  5. Ogres controller chooses to put the Triggered Action from ogres B into the chain
  6. If he decides not to put those into this first chain of the first action chain of turn, the next possibility to use the chain will only happen next turn
  7. Ogres controller chooses to put the Action of the clan rats into the chain, corrupting them as cost payment
  8. The chain starts to resolve in the backwards order: a. clan rats boost ogres A, b. ogres B restore clan rats, c. ogres A find no unit to restore

So no matter how may ogres the player controls, clan rats will be restored only once by them.

P.S. Additionally, the controller could then:

  1. Put clan rats ability into the next chain of the same window, corrupting them
  2. The ability would resolve and boost ogres A
  3. Restore clan rats during Kingdom phase
  4. During any subsequent Action Windows this turn corrupt clan rats and boost ogres A

which would bring the total orgres A boosts from the clan rats to 3 and leave clan rats corrupted.

Yeah, the timing clarifications in the latest FAQ change some of the previous rulings related to "at the beginning of the turn, ..." Triggered Actions. I've tried to make all the necessary corrections in the unofficial FAQ to reflect this. What you have here seems correct to me.

Thanks for confirming, Entropy

By the way, what is the unofficial FAQ that you refer to? Is it the link in your signature? Does it contain (most) card specific rulings from the forum?

Also, are there any other information sources other than manual, official FAQ and unofficial FAQ that are essential when rule questions arise?

Yeah, I was referring to my signature. And yes, it contains many card specific rulings.

The "read this" sticky at the top of this rules forum has some info on how to find answers to rules questions.