I have a question about the wording on Minh's personal story. The pass condition says "Each time Minh reads a Tome, put a clue token on this card." To "read a tome" do you need to succeed on the skill check, or does a failure count as reading it? None of the tomes use the word "read" on them. It seems to me that the intent would be you have to pass the skill check to have read the tome. I'm also assuming that tomes that have no skill check, such as the Seven Cryptical Books of Hsan or the Tablet of Bast, can't be read for the purposes of this personal story.

Deja vu:

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/501694/minh-thi-pans-personal-story-and-reading-tomes

Joseph_Lavode said:

That's exactly how I "read" it too. I've played Minh a number of times and she's one of my favorites. I don't always get her PS passed because I don't always get enough tomes fast enough or they are the wrong kind. Once she passes her PS she's a very powerful character, not only gaining an ally but also gaining a almost permanent Blessing.

mageith said:

Or permanent Voice of Ra ?

Dam said:

This is a more accurate description. Once Minh has come to terms with her dual-named employer's death, she is in a constant state of yelling really loud.

Tibs said:

Except its not permanent, its just almost permanent. If she loses her ally, she loses her bonuses (unless another investigator is in her space).

Minh: "Unique Ability: Synergy - Any Phase: Minh gains a +1 bonus to all skill checks while she has an Ally, or while another investigator is in the same location as her."

It was a joke. Once her friend gets annoyed with her constant shouting and leaves, Minh stops shouting.

Tibs said:

But of course. But its also true that Voice of Ra is a better description than a Blessing. A Blessing works for single dice rolls like for alien statue but is not a skill check. Perhaps I should have said an almost permanent almost Blessing. But an almost permanet Voice of Ra is almost perfect. Unless this falls under constant shouting?

The Blessed tend to shout more. Haven't you ever seen a baptist sermon?

Also, Voice of Ra-esque is how KW himself described it, so it has more clout .

How would you view a situation such as the Book of the Believer? ( http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Book_of_the_Believer )

Both passing and failing the skill check grant a reward. Is it still only "reading" the tome on a success?

Joseph_Lavode said:

Clearly you should house rule how to play Mihn. And there needs to be an official response in an FAQ/errata.

Tough call. The terminology is a bit fuzzy. I'm going to go with to "read" a tome requires passing a skill check. If you browse the Book of the Believer but fail the skill check, then you haven't really understood the critical passages or concepts in the book. Minh's personal story probably doesn't hinge on her ability to only grasp vague concepts, such as failing the BotB check, or using the Cryptical Book of Hsan, or opting to skim the Illuminated Manuscript for a clue rather than to delve deep into it for a skill.

Dam said:

Good call, and good terminology.

Making a skill check for a tome counts as "reading" it. This is obvious when you take into account this card:

www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/New_Miskatonic_U._Curriculum

"If an Investigator reads a Tome in the Library, he gains a +2 bonus to any Lore check made to do so."

What's the point of giving bonus dice AFTER you've already rolled? Therefore it's obvious these bonus dice apply as you are rolling the skill check. Therefore rolling the skill check must count as reading a tome.

I'm not so sure if that's evident enough. Arkham uses the word "location" pretty liberally, and only sometimes does it specifically mean "location."

Additionally, depending on usage, "Darrell Simmons is Blessed" could either mean that he gains a blessing, or that is already is blessed (conditionally).

Wouldn't it be fair to say that Minh's story requires you to "successfully read" two tomes? Anyone could flip through a journal and not pay attention to what they're reading.

Stenun said:

You really can't take something like that as proof. As Tibs said, FFG can't even keep its terms straight with something as basic as "location." "Read" is just a term that was never given a definition. Until you get an official ruling ::laughter:: just house rule it.

I've always assumed the majority of tomes are written in a foreign, if not alien, archaic language; hence the need for a skill check. I can "read" latin all day long, I can even do my best to pronounce it. Doing so doesn't indicate comprehension, chances are I won't understand a single **** word printed on the page. In my opinion, you need to pass a skill check to benefit from Minh's story ... all FFG need do is add "successfully" to the pass stipulation, "Each time Minh successfully reads a Tome, put a clue token on this card." Why would she earn a clue token for failing the skill check, which indicates she was otherwise unable to decipher the contents to her benefit?

... but that's just me. House rule!

I go with Tibs and Avi, simply because if "reading" doesn't require "passing" the Lore check, then you can reduce Minh's Lore to 1 (or 2, as you prefer), and try to read the King in yellow (part of her staring equipment) three times. No chance of success (zero dice to roll), three rounds of limited movement and then, without any fatigue, her Personal story is completed.

Julia said:

Oh, I didn't have an opinion on the matter. I just thought the term "read" is completely unclear, and lacking official ruling on what it means, players should just house rule it however they want.

I think that's a good argument though (I'll make it in the future if it comes up), and clear evidence that the game designers did not intend for failed readings to count as readings. It's still not 100% ;') it's possible they intended her to be much stronger than we think, buuuut, yeah. I find it persuasive.

Avi_dreader said:

::bowing::

Julia said:

Wait, why are *you* bowing ;') you're the one who came up with the good argument.

I think you guys are looking for ambiguity where none exists. There is no reason to suspect that "reading a tome" is anything other than making the skill check for one other than it might make Minh's Personal Story too easy. But some Personal Stories ARE easy. Two times out of three William Yorrick, for example, can complete his right from the instant the game starts - an easy Personal Story.

They don't ALL have to be as hard as Mandy Thompson's.

I think it's obvious that reading a tome is simply rolling a skill check and I can't even see the logic of arguing otherwise.

Here's another card that supports that "reading" a tome is simply making the skill check.

www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Magnifying_Glass

"Movement: Exhaust to gain +2 to Lore checks when reading tomes."

Again, the +2 is pointless if it comes after you've been successful - it has to come when you are making the skill check. Therefore, "reading a tome" is making a skill check for that tome.

Now does anyone have any evidence - other than pointing to ambiguous wording in OTHER parts of the game - that support a different interpretation of "reading a tome"?

My evidence is actually Julia's argument again. True, some personal stories are easy to pass. But Minh's personal story nets her an ally, which is already powerful enough, but allies with Minh effectively give her 6 more stat points.

Since "read" cannot both technically mean "pass" and "attempt" the skill check, I assume both that this is another case of ambiguous wording on FFG's part (which, by the way, I think the "location" argument is perfectly reasonable), and that Minh's story is supposed to say "successfully" read, which would imply that the check had to be passed. Not to mention, the "pass" argument, at least for Minh, makes sense: how's she going to convince an ally to join her when she doesn't even know what she was reading?

Lastly, you probably shouldn't use Black Goat items as examples, because those were some of the quirkiest. And let's not forget that Minh's own employer has two different last names. Slip-ups happen, and so do ambiguities.

heh... FFG's sloppy terminology strikes again ;') return an ally to the box and lose three sanity!