10 hours ago, Mynock Delta said:

The opening is a chucked Bomblet with Sabine, followed up by a Harpoon Missile, than a 5-dice Harpoon Missile. I understand people have varying standards, but by mine, yes, that's abominable.

Fair enough. I'd argue though, that the far bigger issue in this scenario is the double harpoon missiles.

Trajectory simulator itself isn't really an issue, it's combining it with other broken elements that it's problematic.

7 hours ago, AlexW said:

B/SF only.

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just was able to put a Punisher on the table and actually have it get some work done worth its points.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Trajectory Simulator (1)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Bomblet Generator (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 29

Seriously, try it. Its not near top tier at all, but its fun, tanky, and actually can put some hurt out while doing area denial.

8 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I just was able to put a Punisher on the table and actually have it get some work done worth its points.

Cutlass Squadron Pilot (21)
Trajectory Simulator (1)
Unguided Rockets (2)
Bomblet Generator (3)
Lightweight Frame (2)

Total: 29

Seriously, try it. Its not near top tier at all, but its fun, tanky, and actually can put some hurt out while doing area denial.

I don't think it's problematic on the Punisher necessarily either. I just generally don't like the mechanic and think it will create design problems down the road (either causing other issues similar to what we see with Nym or preventing ships from being designed that can make use of both spots). I look at it like this: On a high PS ship vs. lower PS ships, it effectively adds another attack, which as we've seen on Corran, QD and Dengar, is one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

I can see how it would have been a good upgrade for the B/SF because it has so few ways to do damage and appeared designed for it, but I'd prefer that the Punisher get another fix that addresses its problems even if it is in the same boat.

Would this be considered abusive if Nym didn't have an EPT? I think not.

The combo is considerably more powerful at PS 10 than PS 8.

26 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Would this be considered abusive if Nym didn't have an EPT? I think not.

The combo is considerably more powerful at PS 10 than PS 8.

Yeah it's still abusive even at PS8. Think of other top tier lists - Asaaj, Wookies, Kanan, Rho/Nu boat lists, Dash. Between sabine + thermals/seismic you've stripped off two shields then with the follow up missiles you are pushing through a massive amount of damage before they get to fire back. If anything, being at PS8 gives you the option of firing off her missile first and applying the condition, then securing the crit with Nym's GC backed harpoon to trigger it.

In theory you do the following:

1 damage bomb + Sabine = 2 damage

Average of 3 damage with Miranda missile = 5

Nym follows up and does average 3 damage, one of which is crit which triggers harpoon so 1 face down + 3 more = 9

Then also factor in that the bomb could do splash to other ships for one damage, the harpoon does 1 damage, and the kill condition of harpoon does another for a total of another 3 damage.

BEFORE any of those other mentioned pilots have shot you've possibly killed a 9 health ship and done another 3 damage to another one or two if they are flying close.

That's gross. The initial bomb launch to strip off a few shields or hull on targets that can't defend is huge when you are following up with that much firepower behind it.

23 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Would this be considered abusive if Nym didn't have an EPT? I think not.

The combo is considerably more powerful at PS 10 than PS 8.

Agreed. 8 would at least opens up for a good number of ships to go after him, limiting the value of both for him, but there are so few ships that can even consider going above 10 (and then even fewer who can afford to give up their EPT for VI) that it becomes very restricting. I think it's kind of like the Whisper issue (in terms of the PS race it creates).

1 hour ago, viedit said:

Yeah it's still abusive even at PS8. Think of other top tier lists - Asaaj, Wookies, Kanan, Rho/Nu boat lists, Dash. Between sabine + thermals/seismic you've stripped off two shields then with the follow up missiles you are pushing through a massive amount of damage before they get to fire back. If anything, being at PS8 gives you the option of firing off her missile first and applying the condition, then securing the crit with Nym's GC backed harpoon to trigger it.

In theory you do the following:

1 damage bomb + Sabine = 2 damage

Average of 3 damage with Miranda missile = 5

Nym follows up and does average 3 damage, one of which is crit which triggers harpoon so 1 face down + 3 more = 9

Then also factor in that the bomb could do splash to other ships for one damage, the harpoon does 1 damage, and the kill condition of harpoon does another for a total of another 3 damage.

BEFORE any of those other mentioned pilots have shot you've possibly killed a 9 health ship and done another 3 damage to another one or two if they are flying close.

That's gross. The initial bomb launch to strip off a few shields or hull on targets that can't defend is huge when you are following up with that much firepower behind it.

I agree with you, I'm just saying that trajectory simulator is low on the list of abusive issues with the build. I'd order them like this:

1) Harpoons

2) Sabine

3) Nym having EPT

4) Guidance Chips

5) Genius (on Nym, not in general)

6) Trajectory Simulator

Trajectory simulator is not the issue that needs to be addressed, it is a problem added to an already problematic concept.

So, hey, I haven't actually had the chance to put this on the table yet. Quick question:

If you are flying a small base and you fling a bomblet in front of you, then do a 1 straight, will your own bomblet get you or are you safe and out of range of it?

If not, what about a flinging a bomb and then doing a 2 straight?

Just now, Boba Rick said:

So, hey, I haven't actually had the chance to put this on the table yet. Quick question:

If are flying a small base and you fling a bomblet in front of you, then do a 1 straight, will your own bomblet get you or are you okay?

If not, what about a flinging a bomb and then doing a 2 straight?

Do the math:

5 straight - 1 -1 -2.5 radius is larger than 0, so you‘re safe

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Do the math:

5 straight - 1 -1 -2.5 radius is larger than 0, so you‘re safe

But math is hard!

Thanks for your help. Looks like 2 straight is too close? 5 - 2 -1 -2.5 = -.5

1 minute ago, Boba Rick said:

But math is hard!

Thanks for your help. Looks like 2 straight is too close? 5 - 2 -1 -2.5 = -.5

Correct.

Is this really a problem?

Nym is pretty horrific at trading damage for his points if he's carting around 13 points of bomb tech. A Miranda/Nym list will be unlikely to PS kill anything at PS8 or higher. I feel like this is not a particularly crazy list to have to account for relative to the rest of the field.

This is straight-up less damage output than 3nuQD, for example. Cool, you got 1 nu or QD off the board. Enjoy your 3v1 with whichever single ship survived the opening salvo.

Poe + anything laughs maniacally at LRS.

CM large based ships giggle a little and blast Nym into oblivion

PalpLo thinks it's adorable that you brought 1agi ships into combat.

So you eat a Proton bomb. Not ideal. But this list is no different for preparation than anyother list.

2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Is this really a problem?

Nym is pretty horrific at trading damage for his points if he's carting around 13 points of bomb tech. A Miranda/Nym list will be unlikely to PS kill anything at PS8 or higher. I feel like this is not a particularly crazy list to have to account for relative to the rest of the field.

This is straight-up less damage output than 3nuQD, for example. Cool, you got 1 nu or QD off the board. Enjoy your 3v1 with whichever single ship survived the opening salvo.

Poe + anything laughs maniacally at LRS.

CM large based ships giggle a little and blast Nym into oblivion

PalpLo thinks it's adorable that you brought 1agi ships into combat.

So you eat a Proton bomb. Not ideal. But this list is no different for preparation than anyother list.

Miranda Nym is currently the best performing archetype in Regionals.

Guesss what? Turreted ships with lots of hull unavoidable damage with TOO MANY UPGRADE SLOTS are over performing in data! I wonder where I've heard this problem before?!?!?!

@ffg and play testing.

--

Errata Genius no launching.
**** even better, remove EPT slot on Nym and remove System slot entirely. Doesn't need it at all. Remove missile slot also.

Remove EPT, System and Missile slot. =). And it'll still be a good ship with too many options. =)

3 hours ago, AlexW said:

Miranda Nym is currently the best performing archetype in Regionals.

We'll see if it holds up. It's a super flexible but horrendously inefficient archetype that now has several efficiency power-players to contend with. Genuinely don't see how it's any more threatening than Miranda/Dash.

7 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Is this really a problem?

Nym is pretty horrific at trading damage for his points if he's carting around 13 points of bomb tech. A Miranda/Nym list will be unlikely to PS kill anything at PS8 or higher. I feel like this is not a particularly crazy list to have to account for relative to the rest of the field.

This is straight-up less damage output than 3nuQD, for example. Cool, you got 1 nu or QD off the board. Enjoy your 3v1 with whichever single ship survived the opening salvo.

Poe + anything laughs maniacally at LRS.

CM large based ships giggle a little and blast Nym into oblivion

PalpLo thinks it's adorable that you brought 1agi ships into combat.

So you eat a Proton bomb. Not ideal. But this list is no different for preparation than anyother list.

This is tacked on to a list that already features two of the games premier kites.

They don't have to engage with harpoons. They can fly away or past you and plink away whenever the joust is unfavorable. If you chase, you run yourself through bombs and will take TLT - that's a tough damage race against regen. If you veer off, you've very likely given them a positioning advantage to abuse with TLT.

Looking at that quick poon matchup... Miranda will not get caught in multiple ps2 arcs when she has the ability to slam. Nym can drop a bomb early and hold it while repositioning and trying to bait the enemy into being kited. Alternatively, they can choose to try and PS kill a Nu while range controlling the others - a seismic leaves 6hp to missile through with full mods on 5 dice and 4 dice... 3/4 evades for the Nu still leaves it dead.

Poe hates bombs and he doesn't like tlt. Miranda can fairly easily cluster mine non-bb-8 Poe.

CM large bases get pecked to death by TLT. They are also very easy to bomb.

Kylo.... Has a lot of what you want against them with his ability to reposition pre-maneuver to avoid bombs and autothrust away TLT.... But they can straight joust him with missiles and force him to peel off. They can also litter the field with bombs and area control Kylo.

I can't stress enough that this list only jousts when it wants to. It has all the tools to be as patient as it wants and set up the engagement to its liking.

On 10/01/2018 at 9:17 AM, Tlfj200 said:

Toronto - 6/16 (link missing, coming from direct message with TO for now; also, 1 nym that made cut dropped and didn't stay in the cut, so possibly 7/16)

It was 6/16 with another at 18th missing the cut by ~50mov. Most of the tournament is now on juggler. 10/16 also had harpoons. Those ten lists have a 100% overlap with TjS nym.

Of the 5 remaining TjS Nyms, all of them made the top 8 in which there was two TjS nym mirrors. Three TjS nyms made the top 4. (ie the only TjS nyms that lost were in the mirrors) Though the eventual champ was playing a QD 3 boats list.

Juggler:

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=3834

Vids:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCk3Ylq2jwldNGynR7HLoFbA

If you read through all the arguments, the conscensus is that miranda and harpoons are too strong. And the dissence is wether Nym with Tjs is too strong, fun to play against etc...

I say it again: Nym with Tjs is no other then the 3 PS11 Cruise Missile aces that existed between wave 10 and 11. You can play against it and your descicions matter. Its not Genius Bumper Nym pre FAQ.

But If you stick to the one tactic you are used to fly, you will lose for sure.

I personally think too that Miranda + Poons is the really strong part. Nym, also Dash and also Low + 3rd ship suit her well.

She makes the lists consistent and so hard to beat.

2 hours ago, Ohnoeszz said:

This is tacked on to a list that already features two of the games premier kites.

They don't have to engage with harpoons. They can fly away or past you and plink away whenever the joust is unfavorable. If you chase, you run yourself through bombs and will take TLT - that's a tough damage race against regen. If you veer off, you've very likely given them a positioning advantage to abuse with TLT.

Looking at that quick poon matchup... Miranda will not get caught in multiple ps2 arcs when she has the ability to slam. Nym can drop a bomb early and hold it while repositioning and trying to bait the enemy into being kited. Alternatively, they can choose to try and PS kill a Nu while range controlling the others - a seismic leaves 6hp to missile through with full mods on 5 dice and 4 dice... 3/4 evades for the Nu still leaves it dead.

Poe hates bombs and he doesn't like tlt. Miranda can fairly easily cluster mine non-bb-8 Poe.

CM large bases get pecked to death by TLT. They are also very easy to bomb.

Kylo.... Has a lot of what you want against them with his ability to reposition pre-maneuver to avoid bombs and autothrust away TLT.... But they can straight joust him with missiles and force him to peel off. They can also litter the field with bombs and area control Kylo.

I can't stress enough that this list only jousts when it wants to. It has all the tools to be as patient as it wants and set up the engagement to its liking.

So... basically a less-efficient version of previous Miranda/Nym due to the greater investment in Nym's bombing ability if forced to kite. Still not seeing the problem, here. Miranda SLAMming is Miranda not shooting. TLT loses the damage race to HLC/Missiles. Still not seeing what makes this any more dangerous overall than Miranda/Dash or previous Miranda/Nym archetypes.

10 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

We'll see if it holds up. It's a super flexible but horrendously inefficient archetype that now has several efficiency power-players to contend with. Genuinely don't see how it's any more threatening than Miranda/Dash.

Because two harpoon missiles throwing 9 dice at relatively high PS plus a couple unavoidable damage from a Sabine influenced bomb is tough to come back from. I know good players who have been practicing against it purposefully. and are having trouble with it with good lists. I think we have different definitions of inefficient...

13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Because two harpoon missiles throwing 9 dice at relatively high PS plus a couple unavoidable damage from a Sabine influenced bomb is tough to come back from. I know good players who have been practicing against it purposefully. and are having trouble with it with good lists. I think we have different definitions of inefficient...

Yes, yes we do. I'm firmly of the opinion that if you let 19hp hiding behind 1agi get off a jousting alpha like that without catastrophic consequences, your list-building needs work or your flying does.

16 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Yes, yes we do. I'm firmly of the opinion that if you let 19hp hiding behind 1agi get off a jousting alpha like that without catastrophic consequences, your list-building needs work or your flying does.

I think the results pretty much speak for themselves.

If you're only paying attention to the efficiency of the cost/health ratio, sure, it's inefficient, but then you're very much simplifying what efficiency means. All you have to look at to start understanding that oversimplification is look at how well Miranda has been doing for years, often with the more points the better, behind that 1 agility and 9 hp.

You're also being reductive if you think that it simply about avoiding the joust. I'll turn your comment around and say that if all it takes is to avoid jousting this list to beat it, *they're* flying probably needs work.

13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think the results pretty much speak for themselves.

If you're only paying attention to the efficiency of the cost/health ratio, sure, it's inefficient, but then you're very much simplifying what efficiency means. All you have to look at to start understanding that oversimplification is look at how well Miranda has been doing for years, often with the more points the better, behind that 1 agility and 9 hp.

You're also being reductive if you think that it simply about avoiding the joust. I'll turn your comment around and say that if all it takes is to avoid jousting this list to beat it, *they're* flying probably needs work.

My entire point is that this list should be pretty easily punishable in a joust, and it's way less efficient in the kiting game than previous Miranda/Nym versions and things like Miranda/Dash.

Fly better or build better. Of course it's a solid list and archetype. Doesn't make it OP or bad for the game. People will adjust.

6 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

My entire point is that this list should be pretty easily punishable in a joust, and it's way less efficient in the kiting game than previous Miranda/Nym versions and things like Miranda/Dash.

Fly better or build better. Of course it's a solid list and archetype. Doesn't make it OP or bad for the game. People will adjust.

You've clearly never seen this list in Action. I believe that the only list it can't joust off the board is QD 3 boats, and even then it's tight.

4 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

My entire point is that this list should be pretty easily punishable in a joust, and it's way less efficient in the kiting game than previous Miranda/Nym versions and things like Miranda/Dash.

Fly better or build better. Of course it's a solid list and archetype. Doesn't make it OP or bad for the game. People will adjust.

It’s very tough to punish this list in a joust without it crippling the other list as well. The win condition for this list also plays very nicely into that situation. I’m not saying it can’t be beaten, but I think we're going to see it continue to hold that top spot because it is a combination of problematic cards that still exist in this game.