6 minutes ago, Rangor said:

As can be seen in the tournament scene, due to hard alpha lists Nym is nowhere near the top.

Guess you haven’t been paying attention.

4 minutes ago, tortugatron said:

Guess you haven’t been paying attention.

Examples? All the regionals i watched there was no Nym but loads of gunboats, wookies and Miranda

40 minutes ago, tortugatron said:

I’m a judge and I’m calling it like most of the world. It works. I’d rather it not work, but it works until FFG officially says it doesn’t.

Oh, I agree.

5 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Examples? All the regionals i watched there was no Nym but loads of gunboats, wookies and Miranda

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I guess we once again question FFG play-testing as this is about as abusive as a game mechanic can be; simply disgusting.

28 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I guess we once again question FFG play-testing as this is about as abusive as a game mechanic can be; simply disgusting.

If you use Kylo Ren Crew or enough missiles of your own you can pretty much limit Nym to just 1-4 proton bombs and prevent his TLT, 3 dice primary, and 2 harpoon missiles.

Same rules apply as before except now your a bit more likely to take bomb damage.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

If you use Kylo Ren Crew you can pretty much limit Nym to just 4 proton bombs and prevent his TLT, 3 dice primary, and 2 harpoon missiles.

It's certainly possible, but it would be nice if the go-to Imperial solutions to so many things were a list longer than Kylo Crew and Quickdraw.

I don‘t think it‘s worse than AdvS BombletNym, because this one has a clear timer and can‘t react as ridiculously as AdvS Nym could. 4 bomb‘s and you‘re safe, and outflying also works

That doesn‘t mean it shouldn‘t be changed by an errata, but I don‘t think it is as horribly broken.

One problem is that it is a good method to keep you away (hello Harpoons!) or have you fly in close (hello Autoblaster/bombs).

12 hours ago, Rangor said:

Next round of same old qq about bombs.

Same player names qqing. Fascinating species.

As can be seen in the tournament scene, due to hard alpha lists Nym is nowhere near the top .

To me, unavoidable alpha at PS11 is far more of a funkiller then having to guess where your opponents bomb will be placed.

What those bomb maps dont show, the Nym player has to decide where to go before the turn starts too.

And it adds a pretty fun element to the game in general, having to interact with your opponent instead of autowin due to better alpha/dicemods.

First, these kinds of bombs (PS 10 launching/genius and EI/Adv SLAM bombs) are not interacting with your opponents. Advanced SLAM was literally called out by the designers for a lack of opponent agency.

Second, here's the results for Nym with either trajectory sim or advanced sensors (mostly simulator), in this last weekend of regionals:

Phoenix - 3/16

Chicago - 1/16 (3 top 16 lists missing)

Toronto - 6/16 (link missing, coming from direct message with TO for now; also, 1 nym that made cut dropped and didn't stay in the cut, so possibly 7/16)

Queensland - 0/8 (only 46 total, one nym with TS was 9th)

Utrecht - 1/8 (only 36 people total)

Krakow - 2/16

So, uh... Nym lists are very, very competitive...?

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

First, these kinds of bombs (PS 10 launching/genius and EI/Adv SLAM bombs) are not interacting with your opponents. Advanced SLAM was literally called out by the designers for a lack of opponent agency.

Second, here's the results for Nym with either trajectory sim or advanced sensors (mostly simulator), in this last weekend of regionals:

Phoenix - 3/16

Chicago - 1/16 (3 top 16 lists missing)

Toronto - 6/16 (link missing, coming from direct message with TO for now; also, 1 nym that made cut dropped and didn't stay in the cut, so possibly 7/16)

Queensland - 0/8 (only 46 total, one nym with TS was 9th)

Utrecht - 1/8 (only 36 people total)

Krakow - 2/16

So, uh... Nym lists are very, very competitive...?

Something to consider is that Chicago banned the genius/launch combo in a rather....interesting ruling before the event and Nym + genius still showed up at the top tables.

To steal your quote "So, uh... Nym lists are very, very competitive..."

31 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

First, these kinds of bombs (PS 10 launching/genius and EI/Adv SLAM bombs) are not interacting with your opponents. Advanced SLAM was literally called out by the designers for a lack of opponent agency.

Second, here's the results for Nym with either trajectory sim or advanced sensors (mostly simulator), in this last weekend of regionals:

Phoenix - 3/16

Chicago - 1/16 (3 top 16 lists missing)

Toronto - 6/16 (link missing, coming from direct message with TO for now; also, 1 nym that made cut dropped and didn't stay in the cut, so possibly 7/16)

Queensland - 0/8 (only 46 total, one nym with TS was 9th)

Utrecht - 1/8 (only 36 people total)

Krakow - 2/16

So, uh... Nym lists are very, very competitive...?

First, if you dont get the difference between advanced slam unavoidable action bombs and tactical used reveal bombs, there is no need to discuss with you.

Toronto was not known to me, seems Nym was played by a lot of good players there.

But still if you like to play with numbers, check out Miranda, Lowrick, Gunboats...

Nym is fun to play and to play against for me (since Genius bump nerf) .

Miranda and Lowrick are not as much fun to me. And far more dominant.

Nym/Miranda won Arizona with TS and 4x Harpoons, and EI cluster mines.

4 minutes ago, Rangor said:

First, if you dont get the difference between advanced slam unavoidable action bombs and tactical used reveal bombs, there is no need to discuss with you.

You do realize that genius makes the dial bombs far more unavoidable... right? That's part of the reason it was nerfed the last faq, in an attempt to limit the number of times someone could do it.

On January 10, 2018 at 8:59 AM, Biophysical said:

It's certainly possible, but it would be nice if the go-to Imperial solutions to so many things were a list longer than Kylo Crew and Quickdraw.

On January 10, 2018 at 9:17 AM, Tlfj200 said:

First, these kinds of bombs (PS 10 launching/genius and EI/Adv SLAM bombs) are not interacting with your opponents. Advanced SLAM was literally called out by the designers for a lack of opponent agency.

Second, here's the results for Nym with either trajectory sim or advanced sensors (mostly simulator), in this last weekend of regionals:

Phoenix - 3/16

Chicago - 1/16 (3 top 16 lists missing)

Toronto - 6/16 (link missing, coming from direct message with TO for now; also, 1 nym that made cut dropped and didn't stay in the cut, so possibly 7/16)

Queensland - 0/8 (only 46 total, one nym with TS was 9th)

Utrecht - 1/8 (only 36 people total)

Krakow - 2/16

So, uh... Nym lists are very, very competitive...?

This is basically the build everyone is talking about right?

Counter Options:

• Mirror List with one less Proton Bomb Equipped for the bid
• PS11 Coordinate sometimes
• 10 damage in a turn before Nym shoots
• 10 damage in a turn after losing 1 of your ships
• Stay out of Nym/Miranda's forward arcs and accept shots from TLT
• Dive into Range 1 and likely take 3 dice with a regular proton next turn
• Kylo Crew

From a couple games practicing against this it basically feels like Nym has an auto damage ordinance version of Vader's Advanced Targeting Computer now.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

This is basically the build everyone is talking about right?

Counter Options:

• Mirror List with one less Proton Bomb Equipped for the bid
• PS11 Coordinate sometimes
• 10 damage in a turn before Nym shoots
• 10 damage in a turn after losing 1 of your ships
• Stay out of Nym/Miranda's forward arcs and accept shots from TLT
• Dive into Range 1 and likely take 3 dice with a regular proton next turn
• Any of the Epic Ships

From a couple games practicing against this it basically feels like Nym has an ordinance version of Vader's Advanced Targeting Computer now.

I think you're conflating "unfun" and "unbeatable".

Unavoidable bombs aren't fun , and based on the drop off we saw after US nationals last year... many people find them unfun.

They basically remove small-based ships with less than 7-ish HP from viability (or you just hope you don't hit this list).

Also, given the complains I've seen about harpoons... you basically just described 3bQD as one of the counters (which it is). As for "10 damage before nym shoots), you're talking about PS 11 alpha, which is a very specific niche list; as is PS 11 coordinate.

The "stay out of their arcs" is not a viable option, as shown by the picture at the start of the thread, and though not posted, the advanced slam bombing map basically has no safe space about 160 degrees in front of the k-wing (and obviously behind it isn't very safe from bombs either).

This is why it's so unfun. It's not unbeatable, but just so... unfun.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think you're conflating "unfun" and "unbeatable".

Unavoidable bombs aren't fun , and based on the drop off we saw after US nationals last year... many people find them unfun.

They basically remove small-based ships with less than 7-ish HP from viability (or you just hope you don't hit this list).

Also, given the complains I've seen about harpoons... you basically just described 3bQD as one of the counters (which it is). As for "10 damage before nym shoots), you're talking about PS 11 alpha, which is a very specific niche list; as is PS 11 coordinate.

The "stay out of their arcs" is not a viable option, as shown by the picture at the start of the thread, and though not posted, the advanced slam bombing map basically has no safe space about 160 degrees in front of the k-wing (and obviously behind it isn't very safe from bombs either).

This is why it's so unfun. It's not unbeatable, but just so... unfun.

Right, guess I was just trying throw together a hot take on the potential counters. Its beatable for sure.

Its the same basic list of things we had in the toolkit to take down Nym last time around (including Kylo Crew ) except now we have gunboats/reload & PS11 Coordinate to help out.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is basically the build everyone is talking about right?

Counter Options:

• Mirror List with one less Proton Bomb Equipped for the bid
• PS11 Coordinate sometimes
• 10 damage in a turn before Nym shoots
• 10 damage in a turn after losing 1 of your ships
• Stay out of Nym/Miranda's forward arcs and accept shots from TLT
• Dive into Range 1 and likely take 3 dice with a regular proton next turn
• Any of the Epic Ships

From a couple games practicing against this it basically feels like Nym has an auto damage ordinance version of Vader's Advanced Targeting Computer now.

I think the optimal list has more points in Miranda. You trim Protons into something else to free up an action bomb for Miranda beside the Bomblets.

15 hours ago, Sekac said:

But that trick works, at the absolute most, 2 4 times. Then you've got no bombs, no droid, and no system.

Is it really that bad?

Given that the first 1-3 turns are maneuvering and the average game length is 11 rounds we're talking almost half of the relevant rounds and I would argue it's more than half because some rounds are positioning rounds.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is basically the build everyone is talking about right?

Counter Options:

• Mirror List with one less Proton Bomb Equipped for the bid
• PS11 Coordinate sometimes
• 10 damage in a turn before Nym shoots
• 10 damage in a turn after losing 1 of your ships
• Stay out of Nym/Miranda's forward arcs and accept shots from TLT
• Dive into Range 1 and likely take 3 dice with a regular proton next turn
• Any of the Epic Ships

From a couple games practicing against this it basically feels like Nym has an auto damage ordinance version of Vader's Advanced Targeting Computer now.

I think those proton bombs are a mistake. You have a 2 pt bid for the mirror, but other Miranda variants for this list are fatter and therefore probably win?

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

First, these kinds of bombs (PS 10 launching/genius and EI/Adv SLAM bombs) are not interacting with your opponents. Advanced SLAM was literally called out by the designers for a lack of opponent agency.

This point isn't accurate, at least the TrajSim Genius side. The Nym player still has to predict where the player will be going during the planning phase. At best, he has two possible choices:

• Launching directly ahead pre-maneuver.
• Launching after the Execute Maneuver, but before the Perform Action step of the Activation phase.

You can also drop the bomb directly behind you before or after the maneuver, but Genius has been that way for years and is not a problem. That is either poor flying on the opponent (landed behind Nym pre-maneuver) or good prediction on the Nym player's part (the enemy was directly behind Nym after both chosen maneuvers).

Stopping approximately 5 forward directly ahead of a TrajSim ship before its activated is a very bad decision on the opponent's side. This isn't a balance issue, its just poor flying decisions.

The only real "agency burgling" is when you maneuver, then Nym reveals, moves and then launches into you. There is nothing you can do to avoid it at that time. This is not anywhere near the same type of agency theft that AdvSLAM dropped action bombs were. AdvSLAM allowed very significant changes in maneuvering post dial reveal before dropping the bomb on top of someone which cause it to be nigh unavoidable.

TrajSim Nym doesn't have anywhere near that positioning.

Being able to Genius launch a bomb into your opponent requires the Nym player to predict the most likely position of the opponent to line up a range 5 forward launch with a single pre-selected maneuver and no re-positioning. This is old school X-Wing out-fly gameplay with the added benefit of an explosion.

Its nowhere near the cancer that AdvSLAM bombing or AdvSensors Genius bumping Nym was.

PS Just Ionize Nym, people. He has 1 Agility. Ion shuts down reveal bombs and TrajSim, and Genius doesn't get around it anymore post-FAQ

7 minutes ago, tortugatron said:

I think those proton bombs are a mistake. You have a 2 pt bid for the mirror, but other Miranda variants for this list are fatter and therefore probably win?

The other miranda is taking a proton bomb and 2 harpoons (because you gave them the bid and know where they are). That Miranda isn't going to live very long.

2 minutes ago, kris40k said:

This point isn't accurate, at least the TrajSim Genius side. The Nym player still has to predict where the player will be going during the planning phase. At best, he has two possible choices:

• Launching directly ahead pre-maneuver.
• Launching after the Execute Maneuver, but before the Perform Action step of the Activation phase.

You can also drop the bomb directly behind you before or after the maneuver, but Genius has been that way for years and is not a problem. That is either poor flying on the opponent (landed behind Nym pre-maneuver) or good prediction on the Nym player's part (the enemy was directly behind Nym after both chosen maneuvers).

arguing that something has "been that way for years" does not mean it is not a problem now, simply that it wasn't (or was less of) a problem then.

See:

Biggs

Advanced SLAM

Deadeye

2 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Stopping approximately 5 forward directly ahead of a TrajSim ship before its activated is a very bad decision on the opponent's side. This isn't a balance issue, its just poor flying decisions.

Correct, and agreed. This is "regular" trajectory simulator.

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

The only real "agency burgling" is when you maneuver, then Nym reveals, moves and then launches into you. There is nothing you can do to avoid it at that time. This is not anywhere near the same type of agency theft that AdvSLAM dropped action bombs were. AdvSLAM allowed very significant changes in maneuvering post dial reveal before dropping the bomb on top of someone which cause it to be nigh unavoidable.

I mean, this is true, but ignores how "close" they have to guess. At long range, it's not exactly hard to get close to a joust. You're PS 10, and you basically see what you're opponent is doing.

3 minutes ago, kris40k said:

TrajSim Nym doesn't have anywhere that positioning.

Sort of. It's almost the same level of positioning. That's the point of the map.

6 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Being able to Genius launch a bomb into your opponent requires the Nym player to predict the most likely position of the opponent to line up a range 5 forward launch with a single pre-selected maneuver and no re-positioning. This is old school X-Wing out-fly gameplay with the added benefit of an explosion.

Its nowhere near the cancer that AdvSLAM bombing or AdvSensors Genius bumping Nym was.

I guess we disagree. It's at least pretty close to it, is the point.

Also, advSLAM Miranda, for all intents and purposes, still exists.

29 minutes ago, Rangor said:

Toronto was not known to me, seems Nym was played by a lot of good players there.

Even without Toronto... 1 in 9 squads, is still very different from "due to hard alpha lists Nym is nowhere near the top. ", don't you think?

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sort of. It's almost the same level of positioning. That's the point of the map.

More informative though is to look at the map for one given maneuver. That was crazy for AdvS-Nym, and it's nowhere as crazy for TrajSim-Nym

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

More informative though is to look at the map for one given maneuver. That was crazy for AdvS-Nym, and it's nowhere as crazy for TrajSim-Nym

Absolutely fair.

I guess my thrust is: is any of this fun?

A lot of people (obviously me) think - no.

The report back from Toronto was - no, people didn't really enjoy the list. They enjoyed the tournament, and the people... but not really the list.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Absolutely fair.

I guess my thrust is: is any of this fun?

A lot of people (obviously me) think - no.

The report back from Toronto was - no, people didn't really enjoy the list. They enjoyed the tournament, and the people... but not really the list.

No argument from me about that question. I just think there is a bit of hysteria going around about how bad it really is. AdvSNym was complete agency burglary. This is still bad, and should be FAQed, but it's much more manageable.
In part because the launched bombs are limited to maximum 4. That's still bad, don't get me wrong, but very different from infinite-bomb-Genius.

Both key aspects are not as bad, so TrajSim is clearly not as bad as AdvS-Nym pre-FAQ.

But again, it definitely should be addressed and changed. My point is that declaring another exodus of players is premature and can turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy if people keep it up.