3 minutes ago, 6ixorganizer said:

You've clearly never seen this list in Action. I believe that the only list it can't joust off the board is QD 3 boats, and even then it's tight.

How is it tight?

I'm just so confused by that notion. Nym/Miranda trades, as absolute best-case, one ship for all or most of one of its own ships. The remaining ship is more or less entirely incapable of keeping up with the damage output of whatever remains.

That's just the math of it. Period. It's up to individual players to leverage that math, but the math holds. The only way that Miranda/Nym wins trades is if it can range control to isolate individual ships. Harpoon Nus are stupid levels of point-efficient if jousting or pursuing. Eating 2XQD +3 Harpoons is a guaranteed loss, and 1xQD+2 Harpoons is a probable loss. I've played this matchup a billion times against BETTER kiting lists (AC/FCS + EU Nyms or Dash over Nym) with things like 2B2Y (aka strictly worse lists of similar archetype), and it's difficult for Miranda/Nym(Dash) to chew through before going down.

The only thing that should give a well-flown 3NuQD issues against a well-flown Miranda/Nym is heinous dice disparity. I'm extremely familiar with the capabilities of all of the ships involved, and I am 100% confident that there's nothing I'm misunderstanding about the matchup.

People will adjust. It's not a new list, it's a rehash that trades kiting efficiency for flexibility.

35 minutes ago, AlexW said:

It’s very tough to punish this list in a joust without it crippling the other list as well. The win condition for this list also plays very nicely into that situation. I’m not saying it can’t be beaten, but I think we're going to see it continue to hold that top spot because it is a combination of problematic cards that still exist in this game.

We'll see. It has some serious natural predators if the rest of the meta flavors can't keep them out.

1 hour ago, RampancyTW said:

We'll see. It has some serious natural predators if the rest of the meta flavors can't keep them out.

If you discount this list, you’re going to spend a lot of time at the lower tables.

31 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If you discount this list, you’re going to spend a lot of time at the lower tables.

Not discounting it at all. Please re-read my posts if that's what you took away from it. It's a solid list of a solid archetype that I don't think is problematic for the game the same way some other posters here do. It needs to be accounted for in your list-building/flying, which makes it no different than any other top list. Over previous iterations, it trades kiting efficiency for the ability to out-joust other inefficient lists, which simply shifts around its strong and weak matchups a little bit.

54 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Not discounting it at all. Please re-read my posts if that's what you took away from it. It's a solid list of a solid archetype that I don't think is problematic for the game the same way some other posters here do. It needs to be accounted for in your list-building/flying, which makes it no different than any other top list. Over previous iterations, it trades kiting efficiency for the ability to out-joust other inefficient lists, which simply shifts around its strong and weak matchups a little bit.

Have you played with or against it?

4 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

How is it tight?

Miranda is still miranda and can solo three boats.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Have you played with or against it?

In which iteration? More than happy to do some Vassal matchups.

1 hour ago, RampancyTW said:

In which iteration? More than happy to do some Vassal matchups.

The current one, Trajectory Simulator.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

The current one, Trajectory Simulator.

What bomb kits? I've played with S/I Nyms but not P/P or P/* lists.

Edt

This needs to be faq'd to stop genius being allowed on this.

It properly warps the meta by itself

2 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

What bomb kits? I've played with S/I Nyms but not P/P or P/* lists.

Standard seems to be proton bombs and thermal detonators.

It just won another regionals in the UK (Cardiff)

There were 7 Miranda/Nym in top cut.

All top 4 were Miranda Nym.

Data starting to back up assumptions

We were doing a debrief. We realized that the top 3 nym miranda players only had 2 losses between them in Swiss.

One loss was a mirror, the other to a member of the practice group who had reps against the list and it was a close run thing.

13 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

It just won another regionals in the UK (Cardiff)

There were 7 Miranda/Nym in top cut.

All top 4 were Miranda Nym.

Data starting to back up assumptions

Thats incredible. Had no idea it could be this effective. Thought it was more frustrating to play against than all that good. 7 of 8 in the Top 8 is bananas.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats incredible. Had no idea it could be this effective. Thought it was more frustrating to play against than all that good. 7 of 8 in the Top 8 is bananas.

It's crazy effective. As well most of the games with the lists are done at 30-40 mins.

So the nym miranda players are better rested as they are literally playing half the time of other player.

Welcome to what I've been whining about since g4h dropped.

Vindication never felt so annoying.

Exactly what is the dominant list build?

54 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Exactly what is the dominant list build?

Trajectory Simulator+Genius on Nym, Sabine+EI on Miranda. Trajectory Simulator on one and Harpoons on both then fill out the bomb slots to taste with Bomblet on one.

19 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Trajectory Simulator+Genius on Nym, Sabine+EI on Miranda. Trajectory Simulator on one and Harpoons on both then fill out the bomb slots to taste with Bomblet on one.

Nope.

Protons/Protons or Protons/Thermals Nym for 2 point initiative bid + Bomblet Miranda is the dominant build. EI is a waste, makes Miranda way too predictable, and if you don't win when you do it, the K-Wing has awful greens and she's likely stuck at close range. If you put Bomblet on Nym you're just doing it wrong these days.

1 hour ago, Hoffburger said:

Nope.

Protons/Protons or Protons/Thermals Nym for 2 point initiative bid + Bomblet Miranda is the dominant build. EI is a waste, makes Miranda way too predictable, and if you don't win when you do it, the K-Wing has awful greens and she's likely stuck at close range. If you put Bomblet on Nym you're just doing it wrong these days.

There's really not just one specific build, which was my point. There's been plenty of success either way (AZ was won with exactly the upgrades you said are "doing it wrong" and there has been plenty of success for other lists with those builds). I'm not saying people don't have a preference, but to say one is "wrong" is a bit silly.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

There's really not just one specific build, which was my point. There's been plenty of success either way (AZ was won with exactly the upgrades you said are "doing it wrong" and there has been plenty of success for other lists with those builds). I'm not saying people don't have a preference, but to say one is "wrong" is a bit silly.

A list winning something in X-Wing isn't evidence of it being correct. We are explicitly talking about the most dominant build, which, if you look at the overall meta across all tournaments and don't just look at who got lucky enough to win, you would see that Proton Nym and Bomblet Miranda is superior to Bomblet Nym and EI Miranda.

Is the latter good enough to take to tournaments? Absolutely, but if you wanted that ever so slightly more optimal build; you'd go with the former.

1 hour ago, Hoffburger said:

A list winning something in X-Wing isn't evidence of it being correct. We are explicitly talking about the most dominant build, which, if you look at the overall meta across all tournaments and don't just look at who got lucky enough to win, you would see that Proton Nym and Bomblet Miranda is superior to Bomblet Nym and EI Miranda.

Is the latter good enough to take to tournaments? Absolutely, but if you wanted that ever so slightly more optimal build; you'd go with the former.

Yea, there's no basis for what your saying. Assuming there is a preponderance of those lists in tournaments, that is still not a good reason to declare them better. It's theoretical which build is better but outright dismissing EI Miranda getting to the top is silly.

16 minutes ago, Ohnoeszz said:

Yea, there's no basis for what your saying. Assuming there is a preponderance of those lists in tournaments, that is still not a good reason to declare them better. It's theoretical which build is better but outright dismissing EI Miranda getting to the top is silly.

You're welcome to go look up metawing and list juggler.

It’s a very strong list and different tournaments are showing its potential. The next step may be another change to Genius, it becomes an Action/Free Action where Stress can be used to help mitigate some potential it would also prevent the double mods for harpoons which helps but nor eliminates the issues overall.