Hmmm. . . "UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!!!!!!!", anyone?

2 minutes ago, Silidus said:

Is there any evidence that he liked killing people? Most of the lines I can think of center around "Do what must be done!" rather than "HEHEH Watch this!". I don't think I have ever seen anything with regard to him killing anyone, personal or by extension, without the higher motive of either making them stronger, testing their mettle, or making example of them.

I think the only time I can think of him killing anyone personally for another reason was his fight with Maul to uphold the Rule of Two.

" Intelligent and highly ambitious, Palpatine desired his family to take on a more active role in Naboo's politics, both to increase their own wealth and power, and also to help their homeworld make the transition into the modern galaxy . He was soon disappointed to learn that he was alone in this ambition, and that his father not only lacked the ability to improve his family's standing, but also arrogantly believed he had all the power there was to be gained. Cosinga's political ambitions never exceeded provincial Naboo—father and son attended two coronations in the capital city of Theed , and for years to come Palpatine would remember Cosinga's envy for the power the monarch wielded. Although Palpatine longed to kill his father, he grudgingly concealed his patricidal desires for years, hiding his true feelings under a mask of simple reactionary rebelliousness. Disgusted by his father's incompetence, and infuriated by his mother's willingness to tolerate the situation of their family, it was not long before Palpatine discontinued the use of his given name as an act of spite. From then on, he demanded to be referred to exclusively by the name of his aristocratic family. ^{[1] "}

That's from Wookieepedia and they source it to the Plagieus book. Also there is this part.

" This was not to last, however, as Palpatine soon crashed the machine, tragically killing two pedestrians in the process. As always, Cosinga bought his son a reprieve, and Palpatine himself never showed the slightest bit of remorse for the incident. Quite the opposite, in fact, if anything, the lack of punishment from the law only served to reinforce the boy's belief in his own invulnerability, and Palpatine insensitively chose this moment to announce his desire to become a professional racer. Cosinga initially banned his son from riding again, but even this feeble attempt at punishment did not last long. After many tantrums, Palpatine wore his father down, who eventually relented, and Palpatine went on to race competitively, and successfully. ^{[1] "}

That's not exactly lawful behavior, or benevolent.

" The altercation brought out their long-standing yet barely concealed hatred for each other, until Cosinga revealed to his son that he had wanted to kill him from the start. Overcome by years of repressed anger and frustration, Palpatine instinctively drew upon the power of the dark side and slaughtered his entire family and their security guards. When the deed was done, he contacted Damask and was assured by his mentor that none would ever learn of his role in the slaughter of House Palpatine. Damask arranged for all evidence of the crime to be purged, and for Palpatine to return to Chandrila. In addition, Palpatine later sold Convergence and moved to a modest apartment in Theed. One standard week later, they met in a luxury cabin aboard the Quantum Collosus . ^[1]

And turns out he did actually kill his dear old dad, alongside with his entire family. Palpatine is not a benevolent person who seeks to bring order to a disorderly galaxy or someone who lost someone and has vowed to never let something like that happen again. He's a psychotic aristocrat, he wants power for the sake of power.

3 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

Palpatine is not a benevolent person who seeks to bring order to a disorderly galaxy or someone who lost someone and has vowed to never let something like that happen again.

See that's interesting, since I would pull out the exact opposite of that (skim reading the page).

4 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

Disgusted by his father's incompetence, and infuriated by his mother's willingness to tolerate the situation of their family

This suggests that he perceives some inequity, his frustration with his father and mother not expanding their political range may be based on a number of factors. Power for the sake of power is definitely a thing, but why? Does Palpatine see an unbalanced system beyond his families sphere of influence? Are there issues related to their political station that could be rectified by an increase in power (such as unfair trade deals with neighboring provinces)?

8 minutes ago, Darth Revenant said:

This was not to last, however, as Palpatine soon crashed the machine, tragically killing two pedestrians in the process.

Here, Palpatine obviously doesn't CARE about the pedestrians death, but this blurb doesn't make it sound like he killed them on purpose or for his own enjoyment. If anything his lack of punishment only further engrains that it is power, not morality that dictates the rules, and his ability to wear down his father to avoid punishment entirely such rules can only truely be enforced by a strong hand, and rules made by the weak and sympathetic are ineffective against those with true power or will, making rules and law an effective tool for sorting the weak from the strong.

Okay, that was all Legends. Let's look at what Wookieepedia has to say that's Canon:

After his ascension to Galactic Emperor, Palpatine essentially dropped his public persona and started living as Sidious full-time. ^[16] Despite this however, very few people other than Vader and some of the Royal Guards knew that Palpatine was a Sith, as he took great pains to hide his capabilities. ^[63] Even Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin, perhaps Sidious's most trusted servant besides Vader, only suspected that Sidious was a Sith. Freed from having to portray his gentle alter-ego, Palpatine allowed his true personality, one of great cruelty and sadism, to occasionally shine through in ways that were obvious even to the most sycophantic of his servants. This caused many of those who worked closely with him, such as Senator Orn Free Taa and some of the Empire's intelligence chiefs, to greatly fear him. Palpatine was also known to loath ostentation and luxury. ^{[63] [3]}

To those who had been at his nonexistent mercy, Sidious was known to be exceptionally sadistic, and he often took visible pleasure in torturing others. ^[47] He was similarly quiet bloodthirsty as well, and frequently reveled in combat to the point of laughing while he fought or killed. ^{[15] [47] [3]} He was also noted for his lack of forgiveness. Darth Vader, who was well known for summarily executing officers who failed him, considered Palpatine to be even less clement than himself. ^[5] According to Sosha Soruna , the reason Palpatine left his homeworld of Naboo relatively untouched during his reign was because he enjoyed tormenting the populace with the fact that he could destroy the serene beauty of the planet at anytime. ^[95] In spite of his exceptional mastery of the dark arts, he was no less susceptible to fear, one of the primary emotions of the dark side, than any other Sith: after being attacked by a powerful Force push from Yoda, he displayed visible panic, attempting to flee rather than fight, and only confronted his opponent when he appeared to have no other choice. ^[15]

Due to his Sith philosophy, Sidious was unwilling to let anyone else inherit the Galactic Empire in the event of his death . Using a game of Shah-tezh as an illustration, Palpatine believed that the Empire's sole purpose for existence was to protect his own life and well-being. He believed that the Empire was a failure if it failed to live up to this purpose. Even before the formation of the Empire, Sidious had prepared for this fate by formulating a Contingency plan. The Contingency involved luring the Empire to the barren Inner Rim planet of Jakku and detonating the planet's core; destroying both the planet and the orbiting Imperial and enemy fleets. The key to the Contingency was the Jakku Observatory (which concealed a borehole that penetrated the planet's core) and Gallius Rax , a native of Jakku who rose to become Counselor to the Empire . As the Contingency showed, Sidious was willing to risk the lives of countless subjects to prevent the Empire from outliving him. ^[26] Sidious also regarded Rax as a confidante and allowed him to address him as Sheev Palpatine. ^[13]

Not exactly the actions or outlook of a Well-Intentioned Extremist there.

11 hours ago, ErikModi said:

Well, Han mentions "the Dark Side and the Light" in TFA. Don't recall if Luke explicitly mentions the "Light Side" in TLJ, but if the fandom can be under the misconception that if there's a Dark Side there is a Light Side for decades, then a smuggler and a half-trained Jedi Master can be mistaken, as well.

My point is, what fans call "light side of the Force" is what literally everyone else in the movies just calls "the Force."

And by comparison, "the light" that is mentioned by a handful of character in the new trilogy seems to be a philosophical concept or ideal rather than a source of power like the dark side is.

57 minutes ago, ErikModi said:

Not exactly the actions or outlook of a Well-Intentioned Extremist there.

...

Apparently I need to read Aftermath.

Do they basically took Ra's al Ghul, and turned him into the Joker.

Just now, Silidus said:

...

Apparently I need to read Aftermath.

Do they basically took Ra's al Ghul, and turned him into the Joker.

No...Palpatine is your standard moustache-twirling villain. There's no deeper level to him, no desire to protect or serve anyone. He just wants power, power, and more power, and is willing to kill billions of people to get it and keep it.

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

No...Palpatine is your standard moustache-twirling villain. There's no deeper level to him, no desire to protect or serve anyone. He just wants power, power, and more power, and is willing to kill billions of people to get it and keep it.

And yet he upholds the rule of two, showing reverence to the Sith religion. Willingly trains an apprentice to overthrow him, rewards that apprentice for attempts to do so (Vader comics)...

All to create a one dimensional cartoon villian? You are correct, comparison to the Joker was inaccurate... sigh.

You can want what's best for the Sith Order, and still be evil. Because the Sith, the Dark Side, THEY'RE EVIL . That's the point.

And Palpatine hasn't really been all that strict an adherent to the Rule of Two. Depending on the source, he picked Darth Maul as an apprentice because he was so marginally Force-Sensitive that he could never be a threat to Palpatine, while serving as an effective living weapon against anyone interfering in his plans. Dooku was more powerful, but older, more set in his ways, and too much an emotionless sociopath to really delve into the depths of Dark Side power. And after Anakin was left for dead, his potential in the Force was as damaged as his body, and Palpatine deliberately engineered Vader's life-support suit to be awkward, difficult, painful, and susceptible to Force Lightning, so Vader never really stood a chance at overcoming Palpatine. He never really intended for any apprentice to surpass him, because he planned to live forever so there was no reason to do so.

And there's what he did to Bevel Lemelisk .

10 hours ago, Silidus said:

And yet he upholds the rule of two, showing reverence to the Sith religion. Willingly trains an apprentice to overthrow him, rewards that apprentice for attempts to do so (Vader comics)...

All to create a one dimensional cartoon villian? You are correct, comparison to the Joker was inaccurate... sigh.

Vader isn't really regarded as a succesor though. More like a chained attack dog that he sometimes forces to fight other dogs for the privilege of remaining as his dog. He's got no real intrest in the Sith or the rule of two. He follows the rule of One, him and no one else in power or able to challenge him.

16 hours ago, Silidus said:

And yet he upholds the rule of two, showing reverence to the Sith religion. Willingly trains an apprentice to overthrow him, rewards that apprentice for attempts to do so (Vader comics)...

I know that nobody likes it when I bring in Legends, but:

"Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal."

-Darth Sidious

“Choose someone as a succesor and you will inevitably be succeeded.”

-Darth Sidious

Praising Vader for attempting to overthrow him was no more genuine than pretty much anything else Sidious has ever said. For all his pretending to adhere to Sith ways, Sidious never intended for Vader to be a successor. Vader was a fun project and a useful tool, but Sidious never had any intention of making him a Sith Lord. Why, you ask? Because Sidious had no intentions of ever dying. He wanted to become immortal and achieve god-like power in the Dark Side of the Force. He didn’t need a successor.

17 hours ago, Silidus said:

And yet he upholds the rule of two, showing reverence to the Sith religion. Willingly trains an apprentice to overthrow him, rewards that apprentice for attempts to do so (Vader comics)...

All to create a one dimensional cartoon villian? You are correct, comparison to the Joker was inaccurate... sigh.

Yeah, I don't see anything in material to suggest that Palpatine was a devotee. He was a brilliant, prodigious, self-interested, power-hungry villain that used the power and secrets of the Sith to propel himself to galactic dominance.

And my "no" was to Palpatine being turned "from Ra's al Ghul into the Joker," since 1) IMO both of these characters are terrible comparisons to the Emperor, and 2) there has been no such transformation that I can see.

17 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

No...Palpatine is your standard moustache-twirling villain. There's no deeper level to him, no desire to protect or serve anyone. He just wants power, power, and more power, and is willing to kill billions of people to get it and keep it.

Agreed, once you take away all the extra material that the EU/Legends built up around him.

Looking strictly at the films (especially Rotj), Palpatine is indeed a one-note villain, with Vader as his top enforcer. The prequels added a bit more, but that was mostly building up his cred as a top-tier manipulator.

But ultimately, Palps is just as much a one-dimensional "mustache-twirling villain" of the type seen in the old time serials that inspired Star Wars in the first place.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

And my "no" was to Palpatine being turned "from Ra's al Ghul into the Joker," since 1) IMO both of these characters are terrible comparisons to the Emperor, and 2) there has been no such transformation that I can see.

I can kind of see this transformation when in Revenge, he basically stops hiding his true personality behind the Chancellor facade, and starts cackling and hamming it up to Eleven. I mean, if we didn't already know where Palpatine ends up, namely the cackling, laughing, lightning hurling despot in Return's finale, seeing him go from a laid back, subdued politician to "UUUUNNNLLLIIIIIIIMITEEDD POOOOOOOWWWAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! " and that "Nooo....NOOOOOOO NOOO NOOOOO!!!" scenes, would seem like something of a huge personality transition to people.

Personally, I just saw it as Palps just stopped pretending at that point. He was literally dancing as the world ended, watching everything burn around him, just like he wanted. All his years of manipulation and lies had finally paid off. He'd toppled the Republic, ensured his own position of power, and had issued the order to have his most hated enemy eradicated from the galaxy. He'd won. So yeah, he was laughing his butt off at that point. So to me it made sense, but I can see how it might come across as jarring to some.

If justified killing of others in defense is OK, then killing others because you need to eat in order to survive might just be OK too. Focus on that need part though, because killing just because you have the munchies is like killing just because someone annoyed you. Not that players being players might not do both...

On 1/20/2018 at 8:14 PM, HappyDaze said:

If justified killing of others in defense is OK, then killing others because you need to eat in order to survive might just be OK too. Focus on that need part though, because killing just because you have the munchies is like killing just because someone annoyed you. Not that players being players might not do both...

I thought that the "murderhobo" was just an overplayed stereotype, but then I joined the D&D 5e Facebook group and...yeah. Apparently they do indeed do these types of things with surprising frequency.

13 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

I thought that the "murderhobo" was just an overplayed stereotype, but then I joined the D&D 5e Facebook group and...yeah. Apparently they do indeed do these types of things with surprising frequency.

Case in point, one guy was on there basically asking how he could legit kill his PCs, looking for a bad guy that was invulnerable to damage

#whenyouknowyouvemurderedyourlasthobo