So with the new Raid tokens you can easily lock down squadron commands. Thus killing the rhymer ball and other stuff.

More and more upgrades are coming out that are specifically anti-squadron.

So question is do you think squadrons have a future in the next tournament?

If you believe that (and I personally don’t), then the answer is probably Rogues.

The answer is always Rogues

Wave 8 : Rise of the Rogues.

No seriously, I feel it's just the opposite. If you bring zero squadrons, they'll just lock down your Nav, or Eng, of CF.

Nav could be REALLY bad. Imagine rolling in with a Liberty at speed 3, only to get your nav removed, and be stuck passing over the battle and being effectively out of the battle after a single round of shooting.

If anything this wave makes squads even more necessary... how do you plan on delivering that raid token without a gauntlet fighter? You are left with Jyn as your only option, and are relying on last/first with a strong bid to make it happen, and are hoping to not get bombed to death in the squadron phase in between

If anything, having at least some of a squadron presence to counter enemy squadrons is more essential than ever. Also, I'm certain there will be some mechanic to remove Raid tokens, it just hasn't been revealed yet. And I think Rogues have a greater place in the current meta than has previously thought. There is something to be said for being able to make a few moves during the squadron phase after your opponent's big push in the ship phase.

17 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

If anything, having at least some of a squadron presence to counter enemy squadrons is more essential than ever. Also, I'm certain there will be some mechanic to remove Raid tokens, it just hasn't been revealed yet. And I think Rogues have a greater place in the current meta than has previously thought. There is something to be said for being able to make a few moves during the squadron phase after your opponent's big push in the ship phase.

I like the points people make, the thing about Rogue though that people forget is that Rogue is not exactly a substitute for a token or dial command as commands happen in the Capital ship phase before squadrons. The way I rank squadron activations is as such

1. Dial/Token Squadron Command
2. Rouge Move & Attack (or Attack & Move) Activation
3. Standard Activation (Attack or Move)

Unlike capital ships where you usually want a later activation to react accordingly to your opponent's ship maneuvers, in Squadrons you want to get the first attacks in as most squadrons don't have defensive tokens and getting to early removes (you only have 6 turns) can bring a real advantage.

5 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

I like the points people make, the thing about Rogue though that people forget is that Rogue is not exactly a substitute for a token or dial command as commands happen in the Capital ship phase before squadrons. The way I rank squadron activations is as such

1. Dial/Token Squadron Command
2. Rouge Move & Attack (or Attack & Move) Activation
3. Standard Activation (Attack or Move)

Unlike capital ships where you usually want a later activation to react accordingly to your opponent's ship maneuvers, in Squadrons you want to get the first attacks in as most squadrons don't have defensive tokens and getting to early removes (you only have 6 turns) can bring a real advantage.

But what if you are targeting ships, not enemy squadrons? Then I'd argue that Rogue is BETTER than squad commands- you can wait until the last enemy ship moves into range even at an activation disadvantage, and then pounce on it! It's also nice to have 2 or so rogues that can hang back and then finish off squads that are just barely hanging on after the ship phase engagement

Agreed that there's nothing i've seen that says we will be reducing squadrons. I'd still be sticking with my 100pts minimum rule if I was going to a comp.

The main thing people forget is that squadrons are worth points... taking squadrons isn't points that are wasted because you didn't buy ships its points spent ensuring you can actually kill the enemy's points investment in squadrons. Flak will never be enough on its own because they will just get low health and fly away, at best flak is a support/deterrent. Squadrons are essential.

As for the question of Rogue I think that having a couple in there can be handy but to me the original rogues are mostly outclassed by so many awesome uniques in the recent waves (looking at you CC...) so if all you want are bombers/shooters I think non rogue is far better bang for buck.

That said this ship as rogue is interesting, hold it back until all the important stuff is done then zoom forward at the end into a nice pocket the enemy hasn't covered and do something to mess up their first activation next turn... could be cool. Still depends a heap on the full rules for raid.

2 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

But what if you are targeting ships, not enemy squadrons? Then I'd argue that Rogue is BETTER than squad commands- you can wait until the last enemy ship moves into range even at an activation disadvantage, and then pounce on it! It's also nice to have 2 or so rogues that can hang back and then finish off squads that are just barely hanging on after the ship phase engagement

It all depends on placement. Rogue will still have to brave any blue anti squadron attacks that may come their way unless the ship is moving at speed 4 and if a ship speeds straight into a swarm of squadrons then that is a mistake on the captain's part not a strategic maneuver on the squadron leader's part. With commands if you have initiative you can jump on ships before they activate taking down some shields opening up the hull zones to your ship's attack. Again all while I stated usually you want your squadrons to move first and ships to move last, but not always.

3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

It all depends on placement. Rogue will still have to brave any blue anti squadron attacks that may come their way unless the ship is moving at speed 4 and if a ship speeds straight into a swarm of squadrons then that is a mistake on the captain's part not a strategic maneuver on the squadron leader's part. With commands if you have initiative you can jump on ships before they activate taking down some shields opening up the hull zones to your ship's attack. Again all while I stated usually you want your squadrons to move first and ships to move last, but not always.

I've had Hera with two Scurrgs left alone lurking around my ships more times than you can imagine... IDK if its an opponents unwillingness to jump them in combined flak areas, but letting them jump in for a squad phase bombing and then get double tapped by Yavaris on the top of the next turn is just glorious

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

I like the points people make, the thing about Rogue though that people forget is that Rogue is not exactly a substitute for a token or dial command as commands happen in the Capital ship phase before squadrons. The way I rank squadron activations is as such

1. Dial/Token Squadron Command
2. Rouge Move & Attack (or Attack & Move) Activation
3. Standard Activation (Attack or Move)

Unlike capital ships where you usually want a later activation to react accordingly to your opponent's ship maneuvers, in Squadrons you want to get the first attacks in as most squadrons don't have defensive tokens and getting to early removes (you only have 6 turns) can bring a real advantage.

Generally agreed.

In wave 2, the 8xYT2400s made a lot of sense. Activation counts were lower, and we had fewer upgrades and more difficult problems with efficiency in getting those activated squadrons to work. Fast-forward to the present and we not only have flotillas to pad activation, but they also naturally boss squadrons around. And the advent of the Quasar and Sloan create some incentives for running heavy FC-boosted alphas. I've long felt that some kind of mix could be pretty effective. You get some squads to respond during the ship phase itself, and some squads that can react and finish after a number of moves in the squadron phase.

And I think there's also a lot of subtlety in how one activates and when during the squadron game. These dynamics change based on a whole host of factors, the speed of the squadrons, how well they hit enemy ships versus enemy squads, whether they have counter or not, whether there are squadron-boosting upgrades on ships, how many, and what kind. Yes, if you're just plopping your squadrons forward and so is your opponent, it largely comes down to an alpha.

Rogue is more about giving you some tools to handle a few different circumstances.

I was thinking the opposite... if I know I may face Gauntlets, I would max my squadrons to be sure to lock/destroy it asap.

But yes, I think they found the best way to promote Rogues, and I do appreciate that. Maybe Solo and Hera may have their chance there.

So max squadrons is the safest hmm??? For the 6th wave in a row.

I like raid though. Kill them bugs.

Yes please. Everyone move to no squadron builds. Squadrons are bad, Squadrons are the evil. No one should use them.

(and just in case, this was sarcasm )

Its hard to answer this without knowing the full rules, especially what chance if any the defender has to get rid of the raid token. But a couple of things that occurred to me

- the worst squadron in the game (marek jendon) is still quite happy to activate off any gozanti anywhere on the table so raid isnt usually going to help with him.

- the gauntlet itself isnt particuarly tough in the current squad meta. Any combo of marek jendon, sabre squad, valen rudor plus just a bit of flak will likely kill it in two shots. So once the gauntlet commits its probably going to die giving up 20 points unless you already have squad superiority

- the other related point is antisquad squads are so lethal now that if one side goes the path of ignoring the squads and just bombing via intel or whatever, and the otherside just focuses on the squadrons, the bombing (raiding) side is going to die horribly.

28 minutes ago, Ophion said:

- the gauntlet itself isnt particuarly tough in the current squad meta. Any combo of marek jendon, sabre squad, valen rudor plus just a bit of flak will likely kill it in two shots. So once the gauntlet commits its probably going to die giving up 20 points unless you already have squad superiority

I have to agree on this one. The only question is, how much is the assault worth.
Compare the Gauntlet to the YT-2400. It cost 4 points more and has only 1 hull more. And worse anti-squadron dice (4 blue vs. 2 blue+1 red). A little bit better and anti ship dice (2 blue vs 1 black. But the gauntlet need this for the assault effect.

In one point it is sad that this squad is a rogue. Without rogue (and less cost) it would be really great for Sloane.

For now it is only a question how the raid tokens will work. How long do they stay, how can the target remove them (if at all), and so on.

But saying that you dont need squadron anymore because of the Gauntlet is stupid. It might even be that you need even more squadron now, or in other words, that squadrons become more important.

4 hours ago, Tokra said:

I have to agree on this one. The only question is, how much is the assault worth.
Compare the Gauntlet to the YT-2400. It cost 4 points more and has only 1 hull more. And worse anti-squadron dice (4 blue vs. 2 blue+1 red). A little bit better and anti ship dice (2 blue vs 1 black. But the gauntlet need this for the assault effect.

its more comparable to the firespray where it has better speed, hull and antisquadron trading bomber for assault for 2pts more. when you look at it like that its well worth its points, if it was speed 3 it wouldnt make the firespray look soo bad when its already competing with the decimator

I'm seeing these new toys as having the opposite effect as well. I'm a big proponent of running no squad, managing 2nd in a Regional with none of the pesky things. What we've seen spoiled so far makes me think it will be much harder, not easier, to run without squadrons. My dual ISDs don't like not having Nav commands, and a Rogue delivering Raid tokens bypasses all of my squadron defenses.

That being said, it does seem that there may be lovely little anti-squad tech upgrades yet to be spoiled. I'm really holding out hope that something is coming to boost the no-squad fleets.

1 hour ago, TerrorScream said:

its more comparable to the firespray where it has better speed, hull and antisquadron trading bomber for assault for 2pts more. when you look at it like that its well worth its points, if it was speed 3 it wouldnt make the firespray look soo bad when its already competing with the decimator

Well, i prefer to compare the Gauntlet to a good rogue squadron (the YT-2400) instead of a rather bad one (Firespray).

But yes, it is more in line with the Firespray, but this does not make it better.
Only the assault "might" make it interessting enough. But i am carefull with predictions after the last squadron pack . I was right with the shuttle, but for the wrong reason (i thought strategic is better than relay).

This means i will wait until they post the full rules of assault. But in case these are the full rules (ship get a raid token, cannot use the command anymore) it would mean the Gauntlet will be really nice. Being able to remove the role of special ships with just 20 points would be really great.

In regards to the original post, Gauntlet fighters have all but killed the idea of no-squadrons fleets. If the idea of large ships trading salvos back and forth is what attracted you to this game over X-Wing, you can turn back now. The large command 3 ship is now effectively dead, killed by Thrawn's squadron escorts. Anything less than 100+ points of squadron superiority is now worse than useless

I'm very concerned about this Raid ability. This is the kind of drastic power-creep-in-place-of-rules-change that is breaking several other FFG Star Wars games. I just don't see a way that this benefits anyone. And I do mean anyone. Liked your squadrons? You now get to look forward to countering 40+ points of Rogue super-slicers gunning for your carriers every turn. Starting on turn 1. Wanted to be a happy medium? You'll get swamped by both sides and your carriers shut down indefinitely by Raid our simple obliteration. Low squads with powerful ships? They'll be hounded to death, never able to get useful commands off.

And before someone brings out the obvious, yes it's clearly supposed to injure Yavaris and maybe BTAvenger from spamming single commands. But maybe, just maybe, forcing a single real counter to those ships (completely erase or rewrite the commands) isn't healthy for the larger game. Maybe the real issue for those ships was the overpowered titles that functionally counted as a points reduction (a friend of mine did the math to show that Yavaris, for example, is effectively an additional 40 points added to your fleet).

One boarding team was something I could live with. Something to make the Hammerhead shine as the punching above its weight aggressor. You could carefully plan around it to kill or avoid the ship. Now it's just another squadron slog to bloat the game length and force players to choose between fun lists and functional lists.

34 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

The large command 3 ship is now effectively dead

Raid isn't going to kill squads, it's going to boost them.

A heavy squad build is already going to be difficult to land a raid token on. Raid tokens can be removed. I can't imagine a gauntlet surviving more than a round against a squad heavy build...unless you have multiple, with intel, and escorts...but then you are basically building your entire fleet around raids which in itself is a weak fleet.

I see gauntlets as the end of squadronless fleets. MSUs, Ackbar Congas, and dual ISDs don't have an effective way to deal with gauntlet fighters. Once the rebels get a U-wing with the same ability, you can expect to see 1 or 2 of these in a mid-high percentage of builds specifically to counter squadronless builds, or land a specific 1 turn lockdown on a significant threat. These fleets already have to deal with bomber fleets that can be a problem. Now they have a new squadron threat.

Gauntlets need to be shut down hard and fast, and even dedicated flak boats can't do that, so you need squads to defend from raid tokens.

I don't think raid is OP, or bad, but I do see it narrowing the type of fleets we see, which is kind of sad.

It will be interesting to see how we get rid of the raid tokens. If it's spend a dial, then Raymus and Wolf might get really popular. Because you can at least get half your command off. Even Tarkin or Garm could get more popular because of this. If it is just spend a token to get rid of, say hello to comms net and Tarkin and Garm again. I look forward to seeing how to get rid of it.
But I definitely think that you have to bring at least a small fighter screen to tie up the gauntlets. I could see IG88 and Saber, getting play to avoid any escort and have them hunt down these guys.

1 hour ago, thecactusman17 said:

Maybe the real issue for those ships was the overpowered titles that functionally counted as a points reduction (a friend of mine did the math to show that Yavaris, for example, is effectively an additional 40 points added to your fleet).

Ho ho ho. What was the math for this?

It is sad though, titles make ships do certain very useful things you cant get off otehr ships. If the Neb had no title, i bet it wouldn't see play at all due to its awful cost effectiveness and weak sides.