Ruin the game? No. Definitely not.

But i have my hates about these new raid mechanics im hoping to see resolved when they fully release the mechanics.

My worries:

1) goodbye squadronless lists.

2) rebels having a single,one use one target raid ability compared to the imps gauntlet sqds that can jump over sqds at speed 4, with rogue so they can attack, and have a decent chance to give a raid token every time it attacks? With 7health so flak cant scare them away??? I dont like this

3) rebel tactics have always been hit and run, with a few outliers. Raid tokens could quite easily ruin this.

4) im worried most of all that as a rebel only player this new raid mechanic will reduce the fleet types i can run, Sloane already means i have to be careful with my big ship builds.

Im very anxious to see the full mechanics surrounding raid tokens. Ill hold my judgement until then.

This is funny. I just finished reading the Chimera article and was so excited about the opportunities Raid tokens and the new shared fleet titles can bring to Armada that I couldn't wait to read what the forums were buzzing about.

I am giddy at the thought of another campaign expansion that gives existing bombers new unique pilots with Assault!

54 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Ruin the game? No. Definitely not.

But i have my hates about these new raid mechanics im hoping to see resolved when they fully release the mechanics.

My worries:

1) goodbye squadronless lists.

2) rebels having a single,one use one target raid ability compared to the imps gauntlet sqds that can jump over sqds at speed 4, with rogue so they can attack, and have a decent chance to give a raid token every time it attacks? With 7health so flak cant scare them away??? I dont like this

3) rebel tactics have always been hit and run, with a few outliers. Raid tokens could quite easily ruin this.

4) im worried most of all that as a rebel only player this new raid mechanic will reduce the fleet types i can run, Sloane already means i have to be careful with my big ship builds.

Im very anxious to see the full mechanics surrounding raid tokens. Ill hold my judgement until then.

Can you clarify your worries some with 3-4? If these become a thing (just like slicer tools could have?) then I can't disagree with you on 1, but how often do you see (with @Ardaedhel and @GiledPallaeon excepted) squadronless lists? Even just a Tycho/Shara or Ciena/Valen is 33 odd points, 8% of your list, and it'll prevent 1-2 turns of you getting raided, which should be most of what your previously squadronless list needs to start putting a solid hurt on your opponent's list. The other question, of course, is whether or not these are actually going to become a thing, as a pair of them are 40 points. That's almost a Raider/2 flotillas of an activation, that's NOT an easy choice.

I think it is to early to jump on the bandwagon of raid ruining the game. It will bring some balance back to things like Yavaris. But squadron less list, they may disappear. However, the minimal squad approach could still work. Assault also requires a trigger effect for it to work, so it is not guaranteed.

7 minutes ago, Mig1921 said:

I think it is to early to jump on the bandwagon of raid ruining the game. It will bring some balance back to things like Yavaris. But squadron less list, they may disappear. However, the minimal squad approach could still work. Assault also requires a trigger effect for it to work, so it is not guaranteed.

But I think it does spell the end of torpedo ships like Demolisher or MC30s. Those ships dial Navigation commands pretty much every turn, and they live and die by their ability to get into Close Range (especially getting those double-arc attacks that they need to justify and earn back their points) and to get out of harm's way, which requires aggressive use of Nav Commands, especially for Engine Tech demolishers. These ships function as hit-and-run lone wolves, and rarely operate with a fighter escort given that they are generally flanking and moving at great speeds. It's just not realistic to run a fighter screen for your torpedo ships, so they will the ships most vulnerable to getting bullied by Gauntlets.

So, if Gauntlets catch on, I think it'll pretty much drive MC30s (of the torpedo variety) and Gladiators to extinction.

9 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

These ships function as hit-and-run lone wolves, and rarely operate with a fighter escort given that they are generally flanking and moving at great speeds. It's just not realistic to run a fighter screen for your torpedo ships, so they will the ships most vulnerable to getting bullied by Gauntlets.

Why isn't it realistic? Can't you throw some A-wings nearby to protect your MC30, or TIEs to protect Demolisher?

40 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Can you clarify your worries some with 3-4? If these become a thing (just like slicer tools could have?) then I can't disagree with you on 1, but how often do you see (with @Ardaedhel and @GiledPallaeon excepted) squadronless lists? Even just a Tycho/Shara or Ciena/Valen is 33 odd points, 8% of your list, and it'll prevent 1-2 turns of you getting raided, which should be most of what your previously squadronless list needs to start putting a solid hurt on your opponent's list. The other question, of course, is whether or not these are actually going to become a thing, as a pair of them are 40 points. That's almost a Raider/2 flotillas of an activation, that's NOT an easy choice.

3: i use navigation so much, im deathly afraid of having my nav taken away round 1/2. Slicer tools i can combat easily with a 6pt officer, im worried that the way you get rid of raid tokens might not be as easy. I mainly run rebel small ship fleets that use nav to avoid instant death from massive dice rolls.

4: on occasion i run squadronless lists, they can be fun or aweful to fly depending on matchup, sloane already threatens these fleets quite badly, these raid tokens could be the final nail in the coffin for these lists.

How often do i see squadronless lists? Im the only one around here who consideres running them. Im actually thinking about running a sqd less list tomorrow.

As to whether my opponents would use a pair of those sqds or a raider flotilla? Its hardly a choise for them. A pair of them are cheaper than a pair of decimators, theyd choose the sqds anyday.

Im not too worried atm, im anxious. Ill wait for the rest of the rules behind the raid token mechanics to come out first.

(Also i dont care what people say about the maths(no offense), if i run shara, she hardly does anything. Ive never had her kill a tie sqd with her counter, its an amazing day indeed if she rolls 2 damage. I seem to roll better with counter 2 generics which dont have an immediate 17pt target on their back. Or better yet YT1300s.)

(P.s. ill probably still need to clarify my thoughts, but right now im going to try and sleep, as likely as it is to happen)

13 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Why isn't it realistic? Can't you throw some A-wings nearby to protect your MC30, or TIEs to protect Demolisher?

I mean, in theory you could. But at that point you're paying like a 16-22pt tax on your missile boat that already has a pretty tough time sneaking in, doing enough damage to justify it's cost, and then get away alive. And this is all to protect it from getting raked over the coals by a 20pt enemy squadron... And if the opponent has an Intel JM5K with its Gauntlet, all the TIEs or A-Wings in the world won't help your Nav-dependent ship ensure its relevance. You'll just have to hope you can get that perfect dual-arc black-die shot lined up and slip away all without the nav dial adjustments... but as someone who's played MC30s pretty exclusively for the past two years... I think you're basically hoping for miracles at that point if you think your ship can make a significant enough contribution without nav commands.

So, yes, in theory you could devote a couple screen fighters to your torpedo boats to protect them from (intel-less) gauntlets. But, in practice, I don't think it'll be very efficient, as it raises the practical-cost of your torpedo boat too much, all while taking fighter protection away from the core of your fleet and fighters...

2 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But I think it does spell the end of torpedo ships like Demolisher or MC30s. Those ships dial Navigation commands pretty much every turn, and they live and die by their ability to get into Close Range (especially getting those double-arc attacks that they need to justify and earn back their points) and to get out of harm's way, which requires aggressive use of Nav Commands, especially for Engine Tech demolishers. These ships function as hit-and-run lone wolves, and rarely operate with a fighter escort given that they are generally flanking and moving at great speeds. It's just not realistic to run a fighter screen for your torpedo ships, so they will the ships most vulnerable to getting bullied by Gauntlets.

So, if Gauntlets catch on, I think it'll pretty much drive MC30s (of the torpedo variety) and Gladiators to extinction.

That is a solid point. It does hamstring them a bit and would make flying them really tricky. I am a huge Jerry Demo player and that thing is naving almost every turn. Lets hold our breath then I guess and hope it is not that so crazy that you will never get rid of it.

1 hour ago, DrakonLord said:

im worried that the way you get rid of raid tokens might not be as easy.

But you don't know that. So it's a little early to get all wound up about it.

Also, bear in mind that the other guy spent 20 points on that. It shouldn't be completely trivial to overcome.

You know how you rarely see Slicer Tools? That's because they're a gamble, a 7-point investment obviated by a one-point officer that's good even when it's not up against Slicers.

As a squadronless player, I don't want raid to be that easily countered. It's bad for the game.

I want to have to play around it, to have to plan for it when I see it across the table from me.

I want other people to be so scared of it that they over-invest in fighters, to my advantage.

2 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

But you don't know that. So it's a little early to get all wound up about it.

Also, bear in mind that the other guy spent 20 points on that. It shouldn't be completely trivial to overcome.

You know how you rarely see Slicer Tools? That's because they're a gamble, a 7-point investment obviated by a one-point officer that's good even when it's not up against Slicers.

As a squadronless player, I don't want raid to be that easily countered. It's bad for the game.

I want to have to play around it, to have to plan for it when I see it across the table from me.

I want other people to be so scared of it that they over-invest in fighters, to my advantage.

I think that bolded part is entirely unfaor as in BOTH OF MY POSTS ove said im waiting till the mechanics are explained before getting wound up about it.

Also, slicer tools changes the command, not denies you using it. I dont see slicer tools and raid tokens being the same or similar thing which from what im reading you seem to.

You dont want raid to be easily countered, i do. Were just gonna have to disagree on that point.

Ive said what my worries are, and ive said im gonna wait till they tell us more about them before complaining. Im not gonna waste anymore of my time on that till ive got more info.

7 hours ago, Sybreed said:

oh wow, then I really forgot how bad he is.

Konstatin is OP. Also Dictors are. Raid? Meh.

7 hours ago, ImperialCaptain2017 said:

What I see is a way to take down carrier fleets if you can get the jump on them with Raid tokens set to squadron...doesn't sound so bad to me, as a player who's gotten tabled by squadrons more times than I care to remember.

WHAT?! Your opponents hadn't ships? Then you tabled him! It seems you played against Ben.

8 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Reduce to speed 0. Along comes Mr. Gauntlet with his Raid token, set to navigate. Goodbye ship.

No. Raid will be FUN!

#armadalives!

6 hours ago, Crabbok said:

For starters, it helps adjust the balance of power in Wave 7 - IMO Raddus is by FAR the superior commander in the wave. Thrawn is great, but Raid Tokens are in a sense, a built in counter to Thrawn's ability, or at the very least, a mechanic to force you to change your plans. Like, if you planned for Thrawn to give you 3 Nav options, you may now want each of them to be different.

Just a thought:

Raid tokens preventing from resolving a command is not the rule. IT IS what the article says but who knows? The actual mechanic is unkown. They could prevent from revealing that command forcing you to discard it instead for example. There is a chance of Thrawn being the counter.

8 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Reduce to speed 0. Along comes Mr. Gauntlet with his Raid token, set to navigate. Goodbye ship.

We don't have all the rules about raid tokens. We don't have even a rule.

3 hours ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

But I think it does spell the end of torpedo ships like Demolisher or MC30s. Those ships dial Navigation commands pretty much every turn, and they live and die by their ability to get into Close Range (especially getting those double-arc attacks that they need to justify and earn back their points) and to get out of harm's way, which requires aggressive use of Nav Commands, especially for Engine Tech demolishers. These ships function as hit-and-run lone wolves, and rarely operate with a fighter escort given that they are generally flanking and moving at great speeds. It's just not realistic to run a fighter screen for your torpedo ships, so they will the ships most vulnerable to getting bullied by Gauntlets.

So, if Gauntlets catch on, I think it'll pretty much drive MC30s (of the torpedo variety) and Gladiators to extinction.

My own has 100 points on defenders.

You can always guess which thread is made by Shadow345...

You guys are looking at Konstantine wrong. The goal isn't to decelerate to 0 and hit the ship. The goal is to accelerate the ship and force them to fly off the board. Konstantine their ship to max speed and lock the nav with a raid and away they go!

Honestly, it could be a viable strategy to run Konstantine that way. Not only to dive people off the board (which would likely be rare, but really satisfying on the occasional success), but just to throw them off. Usually slowing ships down leaves them in combat. But you could use Konstantine to speed them up and make them fly away from the combat. If you could reduce a bruiser like MC75 from 2 attack rounds to 1 it would be a significant advantage. Difficult thing to pull off though, and still not worth the investment. Would be funny to see though.

Anyways, raid won't RUIN armada. It will change it. I think it's further proof that FFG hates the idea of squadronless fleets. Every wave has included buffs to squads making them more and more powerful. This I think might be the final nail in that coffin (especially when the rebels get their own version). I see this as a really weak counter to Sloane or Yavaris, but it is a STRONG counter to a squadronless MSU, Akbar conga, or dual ISD fleet.

Until we learn how raid tokens are removed, this question cannot be answered.

9 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

I think that bolded part is entirely unfaor as in BOTH OF MY POSTS ove said im waiting till the mechanics are explained before getting wound up about it.

You're right, my apologies. My intent was to respond to the thread at large, not you specifically--you just had the misfortune of having concisely stated the overall point I was responding to, and were thus the one I quoted.

6 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

You're right, my apologies. My intent was to respond to the thread at large, not you specifically--you just had the misfortune of having concisely stated the overall point I was responding to, and were thus the one I quoted.

Lol fair enough

Also Raid Tokens are far from being a counter to Thrawn.

"Oh, you blocked my carrier? Look at that! I had a squadron command on Thrawn so I am still able to activate squadrons with everything else hehehe"

37 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Also Raid Tokens are far from being a counter to Thrawn.

"Oh, you blocked my carrier? Look at that! I had a squadron command on Thrawn so I am still able to activate squadrons with everything else hehehe"

What we have on the Raid counter is that you can't execute the command. It doesn't care if you reveal a dial, gain a dial, or spend a token. The wording implies that the Raid counter prevents the command no matter where it comes from.

But articles have been wrong in the past, so we shouldn't consider that definitive. We'll have to wait until we see the rules for Raid counters.