Hey all,

1) Say I have a monster with the Aura ability and it covers 4 spaces. If I knockback a hero three spaces, all of which are adjacent to the monster , does the hero take 3 damage from the aura ability or just the one from where he lands?

2) Do the heroes lose all curse tokens/other lingering effects that they were damned with in the dungeon when they leave?

Thanks again! More to come!

1) This is addressed specifically in the "Knockback Example" in the yellow box on page 23 of the rules: a figure moved with Knockback is only considered to enter its final square, not the intervening squares, and so cannot take damage from Aura (or pits, or anything else) except in the final square.

2) If you are referring to normal quests, each quest is completely separate from every other and nothing carries over. If you're talking about an extended campaign (RtL or SoB), I don't know off-hand, but I would be surprised if tokens didn't carry over.

Peebstar said:

For RtL and SoB
FAQ pg12
Q: What happens to lingering effects (Bleed, Burn, Curse, Poison, etc.) when an encounter ends?
A: At the end of an encounter or dungeon (but not a dungeon level) all lingering effect tokens are removed from all heroes with the following exceptions: Poison and Curse tokens stay. (Note, however, that Red Scorpion’s healing power means that she will heal all her Poison tokens and then continue to heal until she is at her maximum wounds.)

question chain(sob): if a hero is knocked into a deep sea space, does he suffer 1 fatigue loss(suppose his armor is 0)?

just a player said:

IMO no. The fatigue loss is an entry cost to the water space and the knockbacked figure is not entering the space under its own control so does not have to pay entry costs.
Further the fatigue entry cost is actually tied to movement - it is in addition to the 2MP cost for entering the space. So IMO methods of movement that are not space to space (eg Teleporting or Shadow Soul swapping if it was not removed from SoB) may also escape this additional fatigue cost.

Wrong Corbon , you lose that fatigue, you do not count the effects on every step just for the last one. it doesn't matter where they land after the knockback, they are threated just like they moved there. (pit, deep space, off the map, any legal space for moving)

I believe Corbon is arguing that the fatigue loss is part of the movement cost for entering the square, rather than a damaging effect , and thus gets treated like Mud rather than like Lava.

I don't think anyone would argue that you lose a movement point if you're knocked back into Mud during your own turn, or for being knocked out of a Pit...?

I have no position on SoB rules, just attempting to clarify the distinction.

Antistone said:

Exactly.

I'd have to agree that a hero would lose one fatigue for being knocked into a water space. The rule says you lost the fatigue for entering the space, not only when you do it intentionally. If it helps, just think of it as the hero frantically starting to tread water, or having the wind knocked out of him / her as they do a belly-flop into the unforgiving sea.

Honestly, I can see this one being FAQ'ed either way. Knockback makes you enter a space, and the fatigue loss is triggered by entering the water space.

Etna''s Vassal said:

I too can see it being FAQed either way. Partly because it is entirely possible that the intent was not the way it was written (the subtleties of language appear to be total mysteries to those who write the rules) and partly because the Descent FAQs have a long history of perverse or screwed up rulings.

However, until we have a FAQ or other official answer, the only thing we have to go on is what the rules actually say – and not what we paraphrase them to say either (lost vs spend for example), but what is actually written.

It costs two movement points to enter a deep water space. In addition, heroes entering a deep water space must spend one fatigue, plus one additional fatigue for every point of armor…

First, the fatigue expenditure (not loss) is tied (to enter a… In addition… entering a…) to the MP cost. Therefore it seems to be, as Antistone says, a movement cost , not a terrain effect .
Second, the fatigue ‘cost’ is an expenditure (‘spend’) rather than a cost (which would be 'suffer'*, 'lose' or possibly ‘pay’ - although ‘pay’ is ambiguous). This also indicates, indirectly, that the fatigue expenditure is a movement cost not an effect.
Third, and most convincingly, if a hero stands still in deep water then the hero suffers no effects from the water at all . This again indicates that the Deep water rules are actually ‘movement costs’, not ‘damaging effects’.

*Note that 'suffer' is used for every single damaging terrain effect that would otherwise count for being knockbacked into. Aura, Pits, Lava, Scything blades, Dart Fields and Corrupted Spaces all use the terminology 'suffer' when describing the effect on the hero - and all of these effects will also happen to a hero who stands still on such a space. Deep water neither uses the suffer terminology nor has any effect on heroes who stand still in it.

When being knockbacked, figures are not required to may movement costs. Therefore they are not required to spend fatigue if it is a movement cost. They do suffer effects of the final space they are knockbacked to though – it is just that I think Deep Water has no ‘damaging effect’ that they have to pay.

Corbon said:

Is that stated explicitly? If not, I'd argue it's covered under the FAQ rule that you suffer damage for entering the square you currently occupy if you don't move during your turn (if it's damage, rather than a cost).

It may be worth pointing out that another difference between a fatigue cost and fatigue damage would be that a cost would be a prerequisite for entering the space (i.e. you can't enter if you can't afford the cost, unless otherwise stated), while a damaging effect would be a result of entering into the space (i.e. if you're already at zero fatigue, you can enter and ignore the fatigue loss, unless otherwise stated).

Of course, if there is an explicit rule for what happens if you have no fatigue, that difference may disappear.

For swimming, there is a rule if you've run out of fatigue, you start taking wounds:

"It costs two movement points to enter a water space, regardless
of whether it is shallow or deep. In addition, it costs heroes one
fatigue to enter a deep water space. This cost is increased by
one fatigue for every two points of armor (natural or otherwise,
rounded down) the hero has. If a hero cannot or doesn’t want to
pay some or all of the fatigue cost, the hero loses one wound
(ignoring armor) per unspent fatigue instead. Monsters do not
pay any fatigue or wound cost when entering deep water
spaces. Finally a figure in a water space cannot jump."

As for paying the cost while in the water, it doesn't say one way or another. It does explicitly state that if the figure moves from an ocean current, no cost is needed:

"When a figure is moved by an ocean current, the movement is
free – it does not cost the figure any movement points, fatigue,
or wounds."

Which makes me think that if the hero was moved into the water, he would not be required to spend fatigue (just like he's moved into water from the current).

I'm also not sure what the intent is if the hero doesn't move at all. Should he pay fatigue? Or is the fatigue for the actual "swimming" (as opposed to treading water)?

-shnar

It just says:

"It costs two movement points to enter a water space, regardless of whether it is shallow or deep. In addition, it costs heroes one fatigue to enter a deep water space. This cost is increased by one fatigue for every two points of armor (natural or otherwise, rounded down) the hero has"

Nothing about losing fatigue for just sitting there, so as long as the hero doesn't move, he / she / it won't lose any fatigue. This does essentially remove the hero from the fight, though.

I guess the argument comes down to what "entering a space" means.

I think the beginning of the quote is your answer. If it costs two movement points to "enter" the water, and then have fatigue spent, that is not something Knockback is doing (you don't spend any movement points when being knocked back).

So by RAW, being knocked into water does not cost any fatigue. Will probably be eratted, but until then...

-shnar

Antistone said:

Fair point.
OTOH, it isn't a damaging effect, necessarily - so the FAQ ruling might not cover it anyway. It is a fatigue cost. It only becomes damaging if the hero cannot or will not (you have a choice) spend the fatigue.

So it could be covered by the FAQ ruling, if it is a damaging effect. But we don't get to know whether it is a damaging effect until after it has been resolved, which creates a wee bit of a logic loop there.

And yes, that difference disappears because if you cannot or will not pay the fatigue then the hero loses (not suffers) wounds for each fatigue not paid.
For every point of fatigue a hero cannot or will not pay, he loses one wound (ignoring armor)

LIke I said, this is still at the 'IMO' stage. But the balance of evidence seems to come down consistently on it being a movement cost vs terrain effect.

1. You have 'spend' (and choice) vs 'suffer' (and no choice) - all other damaging effects use 'suffer'
2. The expenditure appears to be tied to the MP cost by using the same terminology and the 'in addition' phrase.
3. It might not be covered by the FAQ ruling on damaging effects because it doesn't actually do damage necessarily (and therefore isn't damaging). If it isn't covered by the FAQ ruling then standing still on deep water has no effect at all which all but guarantees it is a movement cost rather than a terrain effect.

#2 could just be badly written and actually mean two separate effects - which would tend the fatigue expenditure towards a terrain effect rather than a movement cost. But the way it is written seems closer to the best way to write for a joint effect than the best way to write for two separate effects. When you combine that with #1 it seems fairly convincing circumstantial evidence, if not conclusive proof.
#3 has issues either way, as Antistone points out.

However there is no evidence supporting a separate terrain effect, except the possibility that #2 is intended as two separate effects (and as I said, #2 is actually closer to joint effects than separate effects in it's language choices) and the fact that the effect might be a damaging effect in some circumstances, and therefore might be covered by the FAQ ruling, and therefore if a hero stands still the terrain might affect him.

I still see two possible options, its just that the evidence for joint effects (movement cost) is stronger IMO than the evidence for separate effects (a movement cost and a terrain effect).

I would be happy with a FAQ ruling either way, but until there is a FAQ ruling, or someone comes up with some stronger evidence, IMO there is no requirement to pay fatigue when knockbacked into Deep water.

... ahh, extra replies while I write.

Shnar's point about there being explicitly no cost if moved by currents is the final nail in the coffin for me. Clearly the cost only applies whne the hero is moving (a movement cost) not when the hero is being moved.

So a knockbacked hero definitely should not have to pay fatigue.

I still don't know, since the rule says "enter" instead of "move in to".

We'll see when the FAQ comes out, though.

Though the "moved by current" rule does set a basis from which to begin, and I'd agree that it seems as though the hero wouldn't lose the fatigue, but I still can see either interpretation as equally valid.