7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

...now that you've shut down the carriers, the raiders go to town with their flechettes the round after.

Watch your buddy cry the first time it happens.

Then you cry the next time, as your Gauntlets fail to produce any hits

Fighter coordination teams

Activation is a bonus

6 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

For what it's worth, I would be PERFECTLY happy with Raid if there was no way to remove it. I KNOW there will be, and I KNOW it will be spending a dial. It just makes sense that way.

But I don't think it would be game breaking if it was a permanent shutdown because the things that REALLY need 1 specific command all game are truly those things that are so skewed that they impact design space in the game. Having what amounts to an anti-skew safeguard in the game (raid) means that those ships that lock 1 command and win actually carry more risk than using a ship with a balanced range of uses that currently are outclassed by the one trick ponies. Demo can't nav? Now Demo is a liability. Yavaris can't squad? Now Yavaris is a liability.

For these 1 dial ships that are so strong they're an auto-include, the counter isn't to build something that inconveniences it, the counter is to build something that actually at a core level causes the fleet builder to think, "If I build my entire fleet around abusing item X and run into item Y, I know that I am going be really hard pressed not to lose." And maybe have them opt for a different, less susceptible choice, at least some of the time.

The fact that this a carte blanche nerf to activated squads is something I also don't think is a terrible way to balance the advantage squad points vs ship points bring to the game.

I think the breakdown in this logic is that you're looking at the most extreme cases, and unfairly punishing every other ship that relies on those tokens. Shut down squadron commands all game? Really? So just delete the Quasar completely out of the game, because that's the only thing that ship does well? Apply that to any carrier in any fleet. And at that point, you're removing non-Rogue squadrons from play almost entirely. Flight Controllers, Boosted Comms and Expanded Hangars also become useless, because they only make sense on a dedicated character and this argument is that dedicated carriers should be easily taken out of the battle.

Locking down a Squadron command permanently has a much, much bigger impact than locking down any other command on any other ship. A combat ship can still shoot. A Slicer Tools flotilla can still use its slicer tools. A carrier is effectively useless if it can't command squadrons.

I'm guessing the token will be discarded when you reveal a matching command. So you get Squadron raided, you flip a Squadron dial, and then you discard the dial and the token. Either that, or you discard the token by discarding a command dial without revealing it. Then you can't Raymus Antilles a token even though the command is cancelled.

EDIT - Being specific about discarding a command dial will also prevent Thrawn shenanigans. And since those are being released together, it would make sense that they've prepared for it.

I despise the Raid mechanic, and here's why:

Granted, we don't know how the tokens will persist or be removed, but even if they get discarded when a matching dial is revealed (and discarded), they're still incredibly good at shutting down carriers and brawlers (eg MC30s, Demolisher). Dangerously so, even. It's also a bit of a Negative Play Experience... these little 20pt fighters just roll up and totally neuter your much more expensive ship, and you can't even protect your own ship with a fighter screen if the Gauntlet comes in with an Intel piece...

Then factor that in with the fact that as a mechanic it appears only on:
(1) one unique Rebel double-slot upgrade
(2) Imperial-only fighters
(3) Imperial-only fighters that effectively cost $25 each ...


It's stupid to lock such a potentially potent mechanic behind such a paywall, especially when it's basically exclusive to one faction. If the Raid mechanic is a dud, than it's a dud and that's lame design. But if the Raid mechanic is really powerful (and I fear it is), then it's only available to spam to Imperial players, and only those willing to drop a lot of money on Chimera sets. So whether Raid is powerful or underwhelming, that's bad design/delivery either way...

On paper, though, I think the Guantlet fighter looks nasty. It's fast, it's tough as ****, and it's Rogue for a pretty affordable price point. It'll be good for tying up enemy fighters/bombers when necessary, thanks to its speed and heft, and it'll be good for punishing the **** out of enemy ships when they aren't heavily escorted (or you have Intel). Thank god at least they don't work with Sloane...

33 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I despise the Raid mechanic...

It's stupid to...

...and that's lame design.

Those are mighty strong words to use when talking about something you don't know about.

10 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Those are mighty strong words to use when talking about something you don't know about.

I mean, I gave a reasonable interpretation for the least powerful possible version of raid tokens, which has them removed as commands are negated. They might persist even longer...

I then gave reasons why I think the mechanic and the way it's been distributed both in-game and in-products is something I do not like.

So, you can engage the generous assumption I've made or the reasons I've offered, or you can ignore them. Either way it doesn't really affect me any.

I'm just excited for the whine-fest that will consume these forums in a few months when some tryhard wins some big event using like six Gauntlet fighters and everyone complains about having to buy three Chimeras....

12 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

I mean, I gave a reasonable interpretation for the least powerful possible version of raid tokens, which has them removed as commands are negated. They might persist even longer...

That's hardly the "least powerful possible" version though. As @Ardaedhel suggested earlier in the thread, getting rid of a raid token may well be as simple as, say, gaining a matching command token (e.g. via Comms Net).

@AllWingsStandyingBy and I disagree haha

No shock there.

We ever agreed on anything bud? Hahaha anyway, I want to lead with the fact that totally respect the opinion and that when people see a denial mechanic introduced the snap reaction is to think NPE.

My big HOWEVER comes right here...

"these little 20pt fighters just roll up and totally neuter your much more expensive ship, and you can't even protect your own ship with a fighter screen if the Gauntlet comes in with an Intel piece..."

Here let me demonstrate...

"these little 20pt fighters just roll up and totally neuter your much more expensive ship, and you can't even protect your own ship with a fighter screen if the Adar Talon/Yavaris tripletap Luke comes in with an Intel piece..."

Only for Luke it's immediately followed by a GH immortality bubble. Your NPE and mine are identical, just mine is currently existing and yours is future tense (and not yet tested).

Is raid tougher on carriers and squads vs other ships and the other commands, save maybe nav on a missile boat? Absolutely. But you know what, God damnit, carriers are rough on just about every **** ship in this game. Previously, the only 3 options we had were run away, kill the carrier, and kill the squads. Since Rieekan effectively stops both the kill options, another one is needed. That option is kill the command dial.

Is it currently asymetric? Yep. Does it come at a steep cost for both factions? Yep. But there it is, if you want to run ships and are suffering the, "I will be fine as long as I don't run into heavy bombers" problem that happens every time, you now finally have an option to deal with them that isn't either risking suicide (kill the carrier, rushing right into the ball of death) or improbable (killing aces via only flak). Essentially, it opens up the strongest point for point combo in the game to a new weakness they need to learn to overcome.

It also makes Rogues worth their points again, and I haven't seen enough Rogues to think that is a bad thing.

I am a heavy squad player, I will continue to run my carrier, and I will do everything I can to kill gauntlets and Jyn when I see them cause they got mad carrier hate. I think this is far from the death dedicated of carriers, just a tool in the toolbox to keep them honest and widen the options we get at fleet building.

Anyway, i am sure that we are just cracking open the discussion that will be raid, and IMO FFG did everyone a HUGE disservice by half spoiling it and letting wild speculation and paranoia take hold since we cant even yet have a rational discussion about it. But I for one am more excited about wave 7 after reading the raid efdect that i have been for the last 2 waves.

One way or another, we have to wait and see. It could be nasty. But it’s worth noting that Gauntlets are rogue, which either forces them to use squadron commands or gives you time to alpha. If you’re playing carriers and they survive an alpha because they brought Intel and escort(s) in addition to 40+ points (why cover just one) you’re really both committing to squads. They’re just playing an MFC which is and always has been designed to win vs LFCs. Like most things, it’s probably not going to break the game, and if it does FFG will nerf it. And if you try to field 100+ points of Gauntlets against my Sloane list (thus leaving no room for Escort or Intel) you will be engaged and shredded on approach long before you reach the (relayed) carriers. I promise.

2 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

"these little 20pt fighters just roll up and totally neuter your much more expensive ship, and you can't even protect your own ship with a fighter screen if the Adar Talon/Yavaris tripletap Luke comes in with an Intel piece..."

Only for Luke it's immediately followed by a GH immortality bubble. Your NPE and mine are identical, just mine is currently existing and yours is future tense (and not yet tested).

Well..... you know that I found other ways to guarentee this outside of gallant haven.....

I'm assuming raid tokens can be removed by spending engineering points after a repair command/token.

How is Raid going to be effective against Yavaris? I get it in theory, but in practice, it's going to be **** hard.

As Rebels, you'll need a HH to use Jyn. Anything bigger and you're better off trying to outright kill Yavaris instead of lock it down. But maybe Raiding and killing in the same round will be great so Rieekan gets no use out of Yavaris. You'll also need to have first player so you can Raid at the start of the round so Yavaris does not have any time to react and kill Jyn. You'll also need more activations so you can set up the HH, or other ship, at the end of the previous round otherwise Yavaris has a chance at attacking you or escaping. (When I play with or against Yavaris, it tends to be the last activation each round right up until engagement, where it becomes first.)

As Imperials, are you actually going to fight the squad game through Rieekan Aces, just to have a 70ish% chance to Raid Yavaris? By all accounts, fighting the squad game against such a fleet is nearly impossible, and it's exactly what that fleet wants you to do. Sure, take Intel and throw it and the Madalore fighter at Yavaris, but now you've sacrificed 32 points just to prevent squad activation from Yavaris. Oddly, Imps will have an easier time using Raid because it's tied to a squad, not a ship. But I still don't think it will be effective enough to kill Yavaris, especially if there is a way to remove Raid tokens.

Unless you're doing some crazy out of the box thinking, I don't think Raid is going to be the savior people are looking for in their fight against Rieekan Aces. Honestly, Yavaris only adds 2 or 3 squadron attacks. Preventing that for 1 round will be nice, but there are still flotillas which can take a squad command and you're still getting your **** pushed in by B-Wings. Most scenarios I've played in my head seem to be over-devoting resources just to shut down squad commands, all the while you are playing into your opponents fleet strengths and objectives.

How are people expecting Raid to play out? What is the delivery system and how reliable is it?

1 hour ago, Lord Tareq said:

I'm assuming raid tokens can be removed by spending engineering points after a repair command/token.

But what happens when they raid your engineering command? I'm really interested in this new mechanic it raises so may questions. As well as how many times will we see 'hammer time' - a profundity with a gariel honor jyn erso HH inside. In the middle of a heated slugfest with an ISD? BOOM, HAMMER TIME! No more commands for you!

4 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

One way or another, we have to wait and see. It could be nasty. But it’s worth noting that Gauntlets are rogue, which either forces them to use squadron commands or gives you time to alpha. If you’re playing carriers and they survive an alpha because they brought Intel and escort(s) in addition to 40+ points (why cover just one) you’re really both committing to squads. They’re just playing an MFC which is and always has been designed to win vs LFCs. Like most things, it’s probably not going to break the game, and if it does FFG will nerf it. And if you try to field 100+ points of Gauntlets against my Sloane list (thus leaving no room for Escort or Intel) you will be engaged and shredded on approach long before you reach the (relayed) carriers. I promise.

EH???

MFC - manchester football club,

LFC - liverpool

I think I get the gist of what your saying but I dont get the details ....

9 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

EH???

MFC - manchester football club,

LFC - liverpool

I think I get the gist of what your saying but I dont get the details ....

Medium and Large Fighter Coverage.

yep... I was wrong didnt get that at all

Large Fighter Coverage = a screen of Decimators, YT-1300s or YV-666s

Medium Fighter Coverage = a screen of X-Wings or TIE Defenders

How much or little they change the game will 100% depend on ease of removability. If it takes discarding an entire dial to get rid of one, they'd be crazy good (Game breakingly so since it guarantees a dead turn for a ship which is way too powerful) so there has to be more counterplay than that.

If the counterplay is too easy, it'll be about as common as Slicer tools now I.e. something whose existence you must be aware of, but doesn't form the backbone of the meta.

If the counterplay is too difficult, it becomes the meta and makes for some super unengaging games. With that in mind, it feels more likely FFG will err on the side of caution. Nothing ruins a game experience more than unavoidable control elements.

15 hours ago, Green Knight said:

I'll stick flight commander and rlb on a couple of raiders, then use them as launch vehicles. It's going to be hilarious.

Raiders again prove themselves to be the best imperial ship. Out to buy number seven!

Here's my pie in the sky guess about mechanics that would be annoying but still fun to play. We'll find out in time, but its still fun to guess. Thematically, the raid token represents an ongoing raid. The crew know their ship, and the ship is also protected by its onboard marine forces. But while defending themselves, they cannot resolve new commands to full effect. By redirecting some extra internal effort, the raid can be stopped.

Rules:

During the reveal command dial step, a raid token may be removed by discarding a dial or token for a command of a non-matching type.

1 hour ago, jbrandmeyer said:

Here's my pie in the sky guess about mechanics that would be annoying but still fun to play. We'll find out in time, but its still fun to guess. Thematically, the raid token represents an ongoing raid. The crew know their ship, and the ship is also protected by its onboard marine forces. But while defending themselves, they cannot resolve new commands to full effect. By redirecting some extra internal effort, the raid can be stopped.

Rules:

During the reveal command dial step, a raid token may be removed by discarding a dial or token for a command of a non-matching type.

Woe be the ship I get 4 raid tokens on.

19 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Raid tokens combine nicely with ion cannon batteries.....

Not exclusive konstantine tools. Vic quasar vic lists with QBTs DCaps and ion cannon batteries would love it.

I kept waiting for someone to mention ICB’s! Thanks Gink.

I think the main think raid is going to do is provide a meausre of offensive counterplay to Rieekan-Yavaris. I don’t know how effective it will be yet, but at least its a step.

Oh no! Raid mechanic hurts carriers and brawler that are not played anyways. It also helps those OP rogue squadrons. And preventing engineering or navigation, which purpose could have a Pelta with fleets commands like StM or EF?

Those developers have no idea about their game.

EDIT:

Carriers and brawlers that arent played? What are you flying over there in Espana ovi?

Sandcrawlers?

11 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

Carriers and brawlers that arent played? What are you flying over there in Espana ovi?

Sandcrawlers?

Let me edit it.

Edit: better?

Also I fly Dictors.

Dictors are OP.

For a similar cost to "5 Gauntlets and 2 Jumpmasters", you can take 6 Firesprays or 12 TIE Bombers, and 2 Jumpmasters. Both of those net you more hull and better firepower, and dead is better than disabled. But neither of those lists dominate the game, or preclude no/low/medium squadron lists from hitting tables or top four.