So is yvaris soft nerfed with these or what? More or less useful than slicer? Interesting that slicer didn't seem to take off as much even given it can be quite good against yvaris builds and now quasar builds...

2 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

So is yvaris soft nerfed with these or what? More or less useful than slicer? Interesting that slicer didn't seem to take off as much even given it can be quite good against yvaris builds and now quasar builds...

Slicer Tools was always a last ditch add-on for most of my builds and I can ALWAYS find a better use for those 7pts. sadly, whether it is a different upgrade or for the initial bid. Also, with SFO out there, it kind of nerfed slicers as well...

Just read the article and have some idea about how tokens will work. It is only an idea nothing more, ignore it if you want.

Eaider token does not block whole order. Just downgreade dial command to token (eg. squadron command to squadron token 1 activation instead of whole bunch of fighters). To drop token raid you just need to discard command dial that is blocked by token.

My friend said if i guess it he wil buy me a bottle of % XD

This definetly isnt a yavaris nerf, its just a way of missing with it. I think it'll add a lot to the game but as with most mechanics some lists with be better using them then others. If your fleet is suffering from bomber lists for example, this could be an answer for you

59 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Also, Jyn and Gauntlet say "**** you, BTVenger!"

raid token doesn't stop you from discarding a squad token, it stops you from "using" the token as a command, so no change to BTAvenger....

After it has a squad token (obviously raid token stops it from self generating a squad token), which can be handed from a comms net gonzo or I guess from veteran captain.....

Yup, I'm wrong and dumb. How over-optimistic of me.

2 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

It seems safe to assume that, at the very least, they will prevent the target from resolving a command once. Even if they just disappear immediately after this happens (e.g. when a matching command would be resolved), that's enough to completely ruin a carrier's day. Or send an MC30 careening off into deep space at speed 4

This was my base thought. Fielding one of those might be worth it just to see the look on a players face when the fighter I've been holding in a reserve position forces them to be stuck at speed 4 for at least 1 more turn. that's a bad day.

4 minutes ago, dominosfleet said:

This was my base thought. Fielding one of those might be worth it just to see the look on a players face when the fighter I've been holding in a reserve position forces them to be stuck at speed 4 for at least 1 more turn. that's a bad day.

Yeah, even sadder when they look at the banked nav token sitting on the ship that just flew off into the nethers, that was banked JUST to keep this from happening......

3 hours ago, shmitty said:

I think they will be as common as Slicer Tools...

A bit more. SFO has nothing to do against them.

2 minutes ago, moodswing5537 said:

Yeah, even sadder when they look at the banked nav token sitting on the ship that just flew off into the nethers, that was banked JUST to keep this from happening......

I hate MC30's so much "sad" is hardly the word I'd use for it

I'll add an "issue" I see might happen. Theory crafting here.

What if, because Raid tokens start to really cause the "fly off the board" phenomenon, WHAT IF people started playing MORE flotillas as "air breaks", exacerbating an already alarming issue?

Discuss....

1 minute ago, moodswing5537 said:

I'll add an "issue" I see might happen. Theory crafting here.

What if, because Raid tokens start to really cause the "fly off the board" phenomenon, WHAT IF people started playing MORE flotillas as "air breaks", exacerbating an already alarming issue?

Discuss....

That would involve putting Flotillas into the line of movement.

which would mean the line of fire.

problem solved.

For what it's worth, I would be PERFECTLY happy with Raid if there was no way to remove it. I KNOW there will be, and I KNOW it will be spending a dial. It just makes sense that way.

But I don't think it would be game breaking if it was a permanent shutdown because the things that REALLY need 1 specific command all game are truly those things that are so skewed that they impact design space in the game. Having what amounts to an anti-skew safeguard in the game (raid) means that those ships that lock 1 command and win actually carry more risk than using a ship with a balanced range of uses that currently are outclassed by the one trick ponies. Demo can't nav? Now Demo is a liability. Yavaris can't squad? Now Yavaris is a liability.

For these 1 dial ships that are so strong they're an auto-include, the counter isn't to build something that inconveniences it, the counter is to build something that actually at a core level causes the fleet builder to think, "If I build my entire fleet around abusing item X and run into item Y, I know that I am going be really hard pressed not to lose." And maybe have them opt for a different, less susceptible choice, at least some of the time.

The fact that this a carte blanche nerf to activated squads is something I also don't think is a terrible way to balance the advantage squad points vs ship points bring to the game.

Raid tokens combine nicely with ion cannon batteries.....

Not exclusive konstantine tools. Vic quasar vic lists with QBTs DCaps and ion cannon batteries would love it.

And yes @moodswing5537 the counter to raid tokens is less focus on a single carrier aka take flotillas. The counter to that? Jendon killing, saber and mauler.

@BrobaFett you can shut down forever. Re-raid or add slicers...

2 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

For what it's worth, I would be PERFECTLY happy with Raid if there was no way to remove it. I KNOW there will be, and I KNOW it will be spending a dial. It just makes sense that way.

But I don't think it would be game breaking if it was a permanent shutdown because the things that REALLY need 1 specific command all game are truly those things that are so skewed that they impact design space in the game. Having what amounts to an anti-skew safeguard in the game (raid) means that those ships that lock 1 command and win actually carry more risk than using a ship with a balanced range of uses that currently are outclassed by the one trick ponies. Demo can't nav? Now Demo is a liability. Yavaris can't squad? Now Yavaris is a liability.

For these 1 dial shops that are so strong they're an auto-include, the counter isn't to build something that inconveniences it, the counter is to build something that actually at a core level causes the fleet builder to think, "If I build my entire fleet around abusing item X and run into item Y, I know that I am going be really hard pressed not to lose." And maybe have them opt for a different, less susceptible choice, at least some of the time.

My thoughts exactly. Leaning on a one-trick pony should carry the risk of a hard counter to keep the fleet builder honest.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

Raid tokens combine nicely with ion cannon batteries.....

Not exclusive konstantine tools. Vic quasar vic lists with QBTs DCaps and ion cannon batteries would love it.

And yes @moodswing5537 the counter to raid tokens is less focus on a single carrier aka take flotillas. The counter to that? Jendon killing, saber and mauler.

@BrobaFett you can shut down forever. Re-raid or add slicers...

I would be interested to see if raid tokens could stack, IE if I have Jendon double tap a Gaunt and apply 2 raid tokens can they both be squad and prevent it's use twice? I don't think a squad with 7hp and the mad threat these things will generate will live long enough to hound a ship for 3-4 rounds. But if they can stack tokens, it would roughly be the same effect as a permanent shut down and I would be fine with that.

1 minute ago, Democratus said:

My thoughts exactly. Leaning on a one-trick pony should carry the risk of a hard counter to keep the fleet builder honest.

USE SLICERS. HARD COUNTERED AGES AGO

3 minutes ago, Democratus said:

My thoughts exactly. Leaning on a one-trick pony should carry the risk of a hard counter to keep the fleet builder honest.

So, don’t take a Quasar, ever?

Don’t take a Pelta, ever?

Invalidate the reason why some ships are costed the way they are?

i mean... why bother with carriers at all... now it’s all Rogue all the time or nothing, right?

It exchanges one lot of stuff for another lot of stuff. It’s not an improvement to gameplay, it’s a sidegradecwith options removed.

I much prefer it being an option, with counters, but those counters having a cost, in time or fleet build.

Presemt options. Don’t take options away.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

So, don’t take a Quasar, ever?

Don’t take a Pelta, ever?

Invalidate the reason why some ships are costed the way they are?

I never said any of those.

If you take a Quasar or Yavaris, have a plan for handling / staving off Raids or realize it's going to be a tough match.

The cost of the Raid items has been calculated after the existence of these ships. If the affects of a raid token are permanent - the cost is inclusive of previous ships in the game.

1 minute ago, Democratus said:

I never said any of those.

If you take a Quasar or Yavaris, have a plan for handling / staving off Raids or realize it's going to be a tough match.

The cost of the Raid items has been calculated after the existence of these ships. If the affects of a raid token are permanent - the cost is inclusive of previous ships in the game.

If we lived in a game without Intel, I could see it. If it was restricted to just Jyn style upgrades, then sure...

But as it stands - if it were permanent.... How can you stop It? What is the counterplay to it?

I mean, even AvengerBT is inherently limited by only once per game...

Just now, Drasnighta said:

If we lived in a game without Intel, I could see it. If it was restricted to just Jyn style upgrades, then sure...

But as it stands - if it were permanent.... How can you stop It? What is the counterplay to it?

I mean, even AvengerBT is inherently limited by only once per game...

That's a great question.

I look forward to seeing more details on Raid either in future articles or in the release (yay! On the boat!).

3 minutes ago, Democratus said:

That's a great question.

I look forward to seeing more details on Raid either in future articles or in the release (yay! On the boat!).

That’s just it for me, too.

There must be counterplay.

Without counterplay, you have the very literal definition of a “Negative Play Experience.”

NPEs aren’t just not having fun - it’s not being able to play.

And I think after the Triple Tap Demo “fiasco”, things are considered to avoid NPEs as much as possible.

2 hours ago, SkyCake said:

So is yvaris soft nerfed with these or what? More or less useful than slicer? Interesting that slicer didn't seem to take off as much even given it can be quite good against yvaris builds and now quasar builds...

I think slicers ran into the issue that the flotilla had to be in the front line, and has to activate at the right time to work. Meaning it was going to be a one time use most of the time.

It also still have folks a command and could be mitigated in a few ways (SFO, liasons, the captains).

I'll stick flight commander and rlb on a couple of raiders, then use them as launch vehicles. It's going to be hilarious.

...now that you've shut down the carriers, the raiders go to town with their flechettes the round after.

Watch your buddy cry the first time it happens.

Then you cry the next time, as your Gauntlets fail to produce any hits