With Kylo pilot becoming more prominent, his interaction with Leebo needs resolution. I know there was a tournament in the US somewhere a few months ago that ruled that Leebo's ability didn't override ISYTDS. That got a lot of podcast attention, but reading the cards I honestly can't see how that could possibly be the correct interpretation, even given the "must" in the FAQ for ISYTDS.

I can't find an answer in the most recent FAQ, and I was wondering if we've seen any quasi-official email rulings or anything since then?

I don't really have a dog in the fight since I fly neither Leebo nor Kylo, but if there is an answer, it'd be useful to know.

I’m pretty sure it was ruled that leebo doesn’t work against kylo. I couldn’t cite the evidence of this though.

Read the cards.

ISYTDS: “When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card.”

Leebo: “When you are dealt a faceup damage card, draw 1 additional damage card, choose 1 to resolve and discard the other.”

If Leebo has ISYTDS and the condition triggers, then Leebo is dealt the ISYTDS damage card. This triggers Leebo’s pilot ability. Leebo was “dealt a damage faceup damage card” and nothing in the wording of that pilot ability is optional. Any other interpretation is a blatant violation of RAW, and I sincerely hope a tournament official did not make that mistake at any level of competition.

Furthermore, if Leebo has Determination, then Leebo is totally immune to faceup damage, even if one of the cards came from ISYTDS.

35 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Read the cards.

ISYTDS: “When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card.”

Leebo: “When you are dealt a faceup damage card, draw 1 additional damage card, choose 1 to resolve and discard the other.”

If Leebo has ISYTDS and the condition triggers, then Leebo is dealt the ISYTDS damage card. This triggers Leebo’s pilot ability. Leebo was “dealt a damage faceup damage card” and nothing in the wording of that pilot ability is optional. Any other interpretation is a blatant violation of RAW, and I sincerely hope a tournament official did not make that mistake at any level of competition.

Furthermore, if Leebo has Determination, then Leebo is totally immune to faceup damage, even if one of the cards came from ISYTDS.

Totally immune is pushing it - but anyone with Determination is immune to ISYTDS anyway.

Otherwise this is accurate. Leebo's ability is clear.

Maarek Stele's was the one ruled to be overridden by ISYTDS.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Totally immune is pushing it

Okay, I’m guilty of some hyperbole. There are cases where Leebo will take faceup damage.

2 hours ago, jmswood said:

Read the cards.

ISYTDS: “When you suffer critical damage during an attack, you are instead dealt the chosen faceup damage card.”

Leebo: “When you are dealt a faceup damage card, draw 1 additional damage card, choose 1 to resolve and discard the other.”

If Leebo has ISYTDS and the condition triggers, then Leebo is dealt the ISYTDS damage card. This triggers Leebo’s pilot ability. Leebo was “dealt a damage faceup damage card” and nothing in the wording of that pilot ability is optional. Any other interpretation is a blatant violation of RAW, and I sincerely hope a tournament official did not make that mistake at any level of competition.

Furthermore, if Leebo has Determination, then Leebo is totally immune to faceup damage, even if one of the cards came from ISYTDS.

Personally, I'm with you.

However, I was told once that some TOs somewhere else ruled Leebo didn't work, I think the TOs' reasoning was that Kylo meant Leebo had to choose the ISYTDS crit. I find that utterly unconvincing, and it's all wicked second-hand, but I think there are folks out there who'd make an argument like that.

The ruling that says Leebo does not work against ISYTDS came from Frank Brooks at Gencon.

So there is no debate

Until it's in an FAQ there's debate.

I guess the argument would be that ISYTDS overrides the normal process of dealing a damage card because you can ONLY be dealt the pre selected face up card. Leebo tells you to draw 2 cards and choose one but when ISYTDS triggers there isn't a 2nd card to draw because only one card is available on the condition.

Now personally, if I was King of X-Wing, I would say the sensile way to resolve the interaction would be for Leebo to choose between the ISYTDS card and whatever the top if the damage deck is but I can see a crack there where ISYTDS could effectively cancel him.

ISYTDS deals the chosen damage card, when that happens the condition is removed. Removed, meaning it is no longer in play and has no more influence over the fate of the damage card in question. Leebo triggers when a damage card is dealt, with no stipulation for the source of card. The only thing that matters is the indisputable fact that a faceup damage card was dealt to Leebo. That explicitly triggers Leebo’s pilot ability. It’s not optional, there is no “you may.” The card ability says draw another damage card, choose one and discard the other. Any other interpretation breaks the pilot ability and the rules.

1 hour ago, sharrrp said:

Leebo tells you to draw 2 cards and choose one but when ISYTDS triggers there isn't a 2nd card to draw because only one card is available on the condition.

Read the pilot card again. Your summary is wrong.

2 hours ago, WhisperEcho said:

The ruling that says Leebo does not work against ISYTDS came from Frank Brooks at Gencon.

So there is no debate

I'd say there's very much debate. Per @jmswood Leebo having a draw and choice against Kylo is probably about as clear as an example of "do what the cards say" as there can be. However, the *ONLY* reason there's any debate is that a designer has said something which radically contradicts the plain text of the cards.

43 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

However, the *ONLY* reason there's any debate is that a designer has said something which radically contradicts the plain text of the cards.

A designer ALLEGEDLY made a ruling at some event somewhere. Even if the rumored ruling happened:

1. The ruling is wrong.

2. Such a ruling is non-binding outside of that event until it appears in a rules document.

I was very much in the ISYTDS overrides Leebo camp for a long time, but after actually reading all the cards and rules specifically related to how face up damage cards actually work I'm firmly in the Leebo overrides ISYTDS camp now.

First thing to understand is that being dealt a face up card and resolving the effect of the face up card are 2 separate things and that due to precedent set by the Chewbacca Pilot card are independent of each other, i.e. resolving the face up effect is not automatically resolved by simply being dealt the face up card.

ISYTDS condition requires that you must be DEALT the damage card assigned to it face up, it DOES NOT require that you resolve the face up effect.

Now here is Leebo's Pilot card text:

When you are dealt a face up Damage card, draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other.

So you are dealt the face up card from ISYTDS, Check, ISYTDS has fully resolved at this point and the condition card is discarded. Leebo now triggers, drawing an extra damage card.

You have still been dealt the ISYTDS card at this stage. Leebo then tells you to choose and resolve one of the face up effects. You pick and resolve the non-ISYTDS damage card. At this point you have still been dealt the ISYTDS card. Finally Leebo tells you to discard the ISYTDS damage card. There are now no longer any remaining face up damage cards to resolve.

TL;DR you comply with all of the requirements of ISYTDS within Leebo's ability, but you can simply choose to discard it before the separate face up effect can be resolved.

However of course Frank has "allegedly" made a RAI verbal ruling overriding RAW, so its really a matter of what each specific Event TO decides to run with at any given event.

Frank has ruled things via email in the past that the FAQ contradicted. Dont have any examples off hand but i know its happened a few times.

Until its in the FAQ, it means nothing.

GONK is the most commonly cited one, but there have been a few.

Even rulings by devs at Worlds have been overturned by FAQ later IIRC though I couldn't cite a specific example. Outside-FAQ rulings at tournaments are valid for that tournament, and that tournament alone.

So based on a page of people arguing, the answer would seem to be... No, it's not been resolved. Okay, that's fine, TO's discretion for now.

On 1/8/2018 at 2:51 PM, jmswood said:

Read the pilot card again. Your summary is wrong.

I think my summary was close enough for discussion. "After your dealt a card draw another card" You're drawing two cards total.

At any rate I agree Leebo should get to use his ability against ISYTDS based on the RAW, I was just positing a potential explanation for a ruling to the contrary.

My explanation for why Maarek Stele does not work with I'll Show You The Dark Side while Leebo does work:

• Maarek Stele's ability starts: "When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, [...]"
• Leebo's ability starts: "When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, [...]"

I believe the difference in the wording of these two openings is what makes one work while the other doesn't. In order for Leebo to use his ability ("[...] draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other.") all he needs is to be handed a faceup damage card. He doesn't care where it comes from: I'll Show You The Dark Side , a critical damage from an attack, an attack with Greedo crew, an asteroid, Darth Vader crew, etc. He still gets to draw that additional damage card as the triggering condition was met: "when you are dealt a faceup Damage card." Maarek Stele, however, can only resolve his ability when his attack deals a faceup damage card. If he rolls 2 hits, adds a critical hit from Adv. Targeting computer and the defender (with ISYTDS ) cannot block the critical hit result then the defender is dealt a faceup damage card from ISYTDS but not from Maarek.

It's not the firmest grounds but, if you view the ISYTDS faceup damage card as coming from the condition and not from Maarek Stele (as he cannot/does not control/own ISYTDS ) then it makes sense why he cannot resolve his ability due to the fact that his ability specifically states that Maarek Stele must deal the faceup damage from his attack . In order to accept this you must accept that by not resolving the "standard critical effect" of drawing the top card of the damage deck and assigning to the defender faceup the card that got dealt instead is not from Maarek Stele's attack and therefore he cannot interact with it.

58 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

My explanation for why Maarek Stele does not work with I'll Show You The Dark Side while Leebo does work:

• Maarek Stele's ability starts: "When your attack deals a faceup Damage card to the defender, [...]"
• Leebo's ability starts: "When you are dealt a faceup Damage card, [...]"

I believe the difference in the wording of these two openings is what makes one work while the other doesn't. In order for Leebo to use his ability ("[...] draw 1 additional Damage card, choose 1 to resolve, and discard the other.") all he needs is to be handed a faceup damage card. He doesn't care where it comes from: I'll Show You The Dark Side , a critical damage from an attack, an attack with Greedo crew, an asteroid, Darth Vader crew, etc. He still gets to draw that additional damage card as the triggering condition was met: "when you are dealt a faceup Damage card." Maarek Stele, however, can only resolve his ability when his attack deals a faceup damage card. If he rolls 2 hits, adds a critical hit from Adv. Targeting computer and the defender (with ISYTDS ) cannot block the critical hit result then the defender is dealt a faceup damage card from ISYTDS but not from Maarek.

It's not the firmest grounds but, if you view the ISYTDS faceup damage card as coming from the condition and not from Maarek Stele (as he cannot/does not control/own ISYTDS ) then it makes sense why he cannot resolve his ability due to the fact that his ability specifically states that Maarek Stele must deal the faceup damage from his attack . In order to accept this you must accept that by not resolving the "standard critical effect" of drawing the top card of the damage deck and assigning to the defender faceup the card that got dealt instead is not from Maarek Stele's attack and therefore he cannot interact with it.

This makes sense to me. Doesn't seem too thin, and it seems in conjunction with your interpretation of Harpoont! as the effect belonging to the ship with the condition, rather than controlled by the attacker.

Maarek's ability is preempted in timing with ISYTDS dealing the specified critical instead of the normal critical effect, and then it's the condition rather than Maarek dealing the face-up damage card.

SAY!

That'd be an interesting set of effects. As per Armada, there are ways to get "other sorts" of effects than face-up damage. ISYTDS is kind of one of these. Imagine if there was a cannon that read something like "when the defender suffers critical damage from this attack, they are dealt a facedown damage card and assigned 1 ion token instead." If only Harpewned!! was worded the same way. =P

Maarek ability isn't stopped by Leebo, as per the FAQ, Maarek still draws the cards and chooses which to deal to Leebo, Leebo just gets to draw another with his ability and decide which. Not entirely negating Maarek but mitigating it quite a bit (depending on luck of the draw of course).

Now make it up. Put ISYTDS on Leebo, have Maarek deal a crit...
1) Maarek draws two and the ISYTDS crit and decides which to deals?
2) Maarek draws three, deals one to Leebo who takes it and the ISYTDS crit and draws an additional, then chooses between the 3?
3) Maarek draws three cards, deals one to Leebo (that card gets boned since ISYTDS says you are instead dealt the ISYTDS card, leebo then draws an additional card (after being dealt a card) and picks between it and the ISYTDS?
4) Maarek draws three, deals one to Leebo who takes it and draws an additional, the space time fabric ruptures and a game of X-Wing is to blame for a new singularity...

though seriously...RAW seems to logically follow option 3, but I think option 2 is more fun.

Per FAQ isytds override Maarek - the logic being that it is dealing the card, not him.

6 hours ago, SkullNBones said:

Maarek ability isn't stopped by Leebo, as per the FAQ, Maarek still draws the cards and chooses which to deal to Leebo, Leebo just gets to draw another with his ability and decide which. Not entirely negating Maarek but mitigating it quite a bit (depending on luck of the draw of course).

Not sure how you got to Maarek interacting with Leebo, that wasn't part of the discussion...just how Maarek interacts with ISYTDS and (separately) how Leebo interacts with ISYTDS .

5 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Per FAQ isytds override Maarek - the logic being that it is dealing the card, not him.

Took me 319 words to say this. Nicely summarized.

If ISYTDS overrides maarek, does it not also override Leebo in the same manner? Leebo could still draw the extra card because he is still dealt a faceup damage card, but then the ISYTDS crit forces the attached one to be resolved instead of whatever Leebo picked.

38 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

If ISYTDS overrides maarek, does it not also override Leebo in the same manner? Leebo could still draw the extra card because he is still dealt a faceup damage card, but then the ISYTDS crit forces the attached one to be resolved instead of whatever Leebo picked.

Leebo only needs to be dealt a faceup damage card (from anywhere) to resolve his ability. This includes ISYTDS .

Maarek Stele must deal a faceup damage card from his attack to resolve his ability. The faceup damage card from ISYTDS is from ISYTDS and not from Maarek Stele's attack. His attack provides the condition for ISYTDS to be triggered and resolved but that doesn't make the dealt card part of the attack (it is dealt from an effect outside the attack).