I am looking for general suggestions on which board is best for a skaven deck. Skaven seem to be somewhat midrange if you look at them on their own, so I would like a faction that played on that. I would really like a way to protect my low HP units, but im not sure there is such a card among the current destruction pool.

Orcs look tempting for their ability to control anything in the game. Pillage, Rip dere 'eads off, Smash-go-boom, Troll Vomit. They even have some units that seem ok. With the Deathmaster coming, there may be an uptick in the amount of Blessing of Isha played so orcs can counter with Night Goblins. Lobber Crew also looks nice after the deathmaster takes out the smaller units.

Chaos has some things that I like with their direct damage making Deathmaster more usable, and Horrific Mutation making the opponent suffer that much more. I also like the speed that Warpstone Meteor can add. As well as the Wolves of the North quest to allow more attacking (Greyseer?).

I am really looking to maximize the number of skaven so that I can use Chittering Horde as effectively as possible.

Are the skaven doomed to be only really usable in rush decks right now?

Yeah, I mean there's no reason not to run 3 of everybody with the Deathmaster, and that's 21 cards + 3 Chittering Horde. For the other 26 cards, I think I probably like Chaos a tad better, simply because it's better at killing opposing Deathmasters. I'd still think about running Lobber Crews, though.

I dunno. Our Skaven builds run cheaper and don't have Rat Ogres, Chittering Hordes or Poison Wind Globadiers.

You can build it with an Orc base, which is faster or with a Chaos base, which has more disruption. Either way seems to work and has better or worse matchups. There are actually quite a few ways to make a working Skaven deck. Here's the primary things each base gives you:

Orcs:

• Cheaper Lobber Crews (yes, you still want them in the Chaos build too)
• Choppa
• Waaagh!
• Optional Pillage
• Spider Riders (sooo gooooood)

Chaos:

• Flames of Tzeentch (the loyalty hurts, but you can swing it)
• Cheaper Seduce
• Wolves of the North, which can help against battlefield-only removal like Brutal Offering
• Chaos Marauders
• Warpstone Meteor

As cyberfunk says though, Chaos is probably better right now because otherwise against other Skaven, if you are playing Orcs your only answer to their Deathmaster is your own Deathmaster (before he kills all your guys) or maybe Troll Vomit.

I've had great success with Chaos - Skaven. Skaven are by nature stronger in numbers, but i don't necesarily use as rush, unless facing another rush. I use Bule, Nurglings, Seduced by Darkness, Warpstone Meteor to corrupt at key moments to create holes & allow a pumped up guy through - Greyseer, Warp Light. With new BP, Deathmaster as well now to allow access, Unclean One also to pump.

Savage Marauders for boost in KZ/QZ or later for extra punch in BZ. Culling of the Weak on a KZ when extra damage needed. Wolves of North. Had Brutal Offering in there, to help with rush/blitz decks but will take out and try Shrine to Nurgle again with Juvenile Wyvern and see if i can get it to work.

I think it will always be an uphill battle trying to protect single Skaven units and trying to have a decent defense with them ... I just accept that they're good in numbers & offense and try to take advantage of that best i can. Assault on Ulthuan may change things and MIGHT give a better compliment (scouts, posion wind + that one blood card that destroys damaged unit lol) and not opposed to trying that out, but i feel that the designers will always make it so that chaos is a more natural fit. my two cents

Hi,

I think it depends on your metagame. Chaos is a better choice against destruction, while Orcs are better against order decks.

Key mechanics, cards :

Chaos

- Corruption (seduced by darkness, nurgings, Bule)

- Wolves of the North

- Brutal Offering (very godd with above quest+thanquol)

- targeted removals (Flames of Tz. etc.)

- Faster KZ/QZ buildup

Orcs

- Lobber Crew

- Pillage & Co. (Night Goblins, Grimgor...)

- WAAAGH !

- stronger BZ units

- Mob Up !

So while Chaos could deal with the Deathmaster they are basically toolless against damage prevention (Rune of Valaya), and supports (Shrine to Taal, Bolt Throwers, the new Electors, Blessing of Isha etc.) and they are generally slower in attacking (no waagh, weaker offensive units etc).

About use all Skaven in 3 of : that seems a bad idea. 9 BZ only units seems too much in 50-55 cards (not counting possible Spider Riders etc), and with 3-3 hero there is not much units left to build up. I'll definetly one Globadiers and one Thanquol. (And I only don't a Deathmaster because he is THAT good)

Until now I was playing Chaos-Skaven builds, and I always had a hard time against order decks... so I will try to include the best from both races, and if that impossible I go with orcs, because they seems more variable. Or, I could go in a Chaos-Skaven hand destruction direction (Chittering Horde + Will of Tz. is a nice combo, especially if you have some Gutter Runners in play).

I think that's probably true that Orcs are better against Order and Chaos is better against Destruction, but I think you still have a favorable matchup as Chaos/Skaven against Order, where you don't necessarily with Chaos/Orc against Destruction. Once every Order deck is running 3x Zealot Hunter (prolly another twenty minutes or so) this may change.

Re: # of Skaven - I can see going down to two Thanquol now b/c of uniqueness, but I don't really think 9 BF-only is too many, especially with Chittering Horde to smooth out your draw. You don't really need more than about four hammers in KZ/Quest most games. Globadiers are not that great in the Orc version, but are one of your best guys in the Chaos version. And the more you run, the more you can hit with Chittering Horde. Not that CH is really about card advantage, but you might as well...

I have run some tests with my Skaven&Chaos build against a well tuned Orc rush yesterday, and the skavens were losing about 45/55. The orcs rush faster, and even with 8 BF only units (3 won't block even there) and many more 1-2 HP units it's increadibly hard to defend.

To the record : almost all match was very close, many times decided by 1-2 timely drawn card.

I splashed 3 Lobber Crew and 2 Pillage from orcs (and using CH/Orc alliances instead of Shrine to Nevertrigger)

Another note : now I run 2 Globadiers and 3 Thanquols. Thanquol is essential in my build, since it's theoretically possible to rush the opponent by turn 3 using him, and I use Brutal Offering as board control.

Today I'll run some tests against Judgement deck and dwarwes, and I make changes after those results. It would be easier if BP 4 weren't around 4 weeks far from me.

FWIW, here's the Skaven/Orc list I was playing this lunchtime. I think the Chaos version is better, but this list is quite fast and will often just win.

Orc Skaven Rush

3 Contested Village
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Choppa

9 supports

2 We'z Bigga!
3 Seduced by Darkness
3 Waaagh!

8 tactics

3 Veteran Sellswords
3 Spider Riders
3 Crooked Teef Goblins
3 Gutter Runners
3 Clan Rats
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
3 Lobber Crew
3 Squig Herders
3 Followers of Mork
3 Greyseer Thanquol
3 Deathmaster Sniktch

33 units

50 total

That's certainly as fast as it gets, and there's something to be said for that. I think pretty much the only negotiable slots are the Choppas, the Followers/Herders/Biggas, and the Crooked Teefs/Sellswords. I hate drawing Biggas w/o Followers/Herders, or Followers with no Herders, or whatever. You don't see that many cards with this type of deck, and these cards aren't that powerful on their own. Still, if you get even a single two-hammer Squig Herder out of the deal, it's worth it. Crooked Teefs/Sellswords I like with Totems or Rock Lobbers, but those are more mid-game finishers, and a lot of things can start to go wrong if you venture too far into the "mid-game." Choppas are your second-best speed card after Spider Riders, but give them the two-for-one opportunity, so I'm always torn on those, too. Generally better in games where you go second.

Actually, there is an even faster version that a friend of mine runs with Innovations. He has actually got turn 2 wins (on the draw) with that deck with the god draw. I'm not 100% sold on the Innovations yet but I'm pretty tempted.

The fact that Innovation may even be playable in this deck should tell you there is something wrong with the card, IMHO. Anyway, back on topic.

I am pretty sure you always run 3 Sellswords. Sure, they're not fantastic in the mirror matchup but at least you hit first with them. Don't forget they also contribute to the ever-ridiculous Waaagh! I must admit that occasionally there's the necessity of the "Man's Choppa!" (now with 20% extra chest hair!) - i.e. a Choppa on a Sellsword - in desperate circumstances.

The Crooked Teefs are there to hold Choppas since otherwise you don't care about them really. If you get to hit for 3 once with a Goblin + Choppa they did what they were supposed to do. They are generally your worst unit in play so that's often where the Choppas go - the exception being that since the Clan Moulder's Elite is nearly indestructible if you have Lobber Crew fodder they are also excellent Choppa targets.

I think with an Orc board you have to run Choppas. 1 for 2 hammers is just too good to ignore. Taking a 2-for-1 without hitting will happen sometimes and it does suck hard, but there are a lot of other times where that power boost is just enough to burn a zone.

Excavations, Villages, Clan Rats and often Squig Herders invariably go in your Quest zone with the sole exception being that sometimes you need 1 thing in your kingdom to play Sniztch next turn. You really want to be drawing 3+ cards a turn as soon as possible to keep the pressure on. If you luck into a double Excavation draw you're golden since you don't have to waste units outside the battlefield.

I agree that the We'z Bigga, Squig Herders and Followers of Mork are not ideal, a necessary evil at the moment. You would rather be running even more 2-cost Skavens if there were more playable ones. We've tested with Totems and Rock Lobbers - they are ok but slow down the deck quite a bit.

Yeah, I'm not really sold on Innovation for this deck. It needs cards way more than barrels. Best case, you are overplaying to Quest to fuel it, and thus seeing a few more cards (though netting fewer cards) than you would by playing a hammer or two to Kingdom. There are the turn-one situations where you just dump it all and burn a zone, but even those might not be as good as they seem. It takes three cards to get that extra turn one Choppa on the table; you better plan on winning in two turns if you are holding two and drawing one on your second turn.

The power-level graph of Innovation is very strange, just in general. It might offer you a huge game-winning/game-losing gambit on turn one, then it's very marginal for a couple turns, then it creeps up to pretty good and finally nutsy as you draw extra copies or reach the point at which you would've developed naturally. Don't really think Skaven is aiming to get to that point, though.