1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

When are cr90a's being errated to have an ion cannon slot?

2 hours ago, EagleScoutof007 said:

I took a rebel fleet to a tournament putting NK-7s on two CR90bs along with Nym. It was quite fun striping tokens. I crippled a Liberty but run away with 1 hull left... I'd probably run another similar list.

List of ships which NK-7s are somewhat effective against:
Liberty
VSD
QF

All the others will discard a low-value token (or two) first.

11 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Your point? How does that help Sato?

I'm loving the fact that responses that boil down to "I saw them used once in a game where they almost mattered, maybe they're okay?" are the strongest defense of NK-7s so far in the thread.

I would like to remind you it's a 10-point upgrade, gentlemen. "I saw it almost make a difference one time" is not exactly reassuring, .

11 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm loving the fact that responses that boil down to "I saw them used once in a game where they almost mattered, maybe they're okay?" are the strongest defense of NK-7s so far in the thread.

I would like to remind you it's a 10-point upgrade, gentlemen. "I saw it almost make a difference one time" is not exactly reassuring, .

It's like Konstantine. It isn't terrible on its face, and there are situations where you might be glad to have it, but the question you eventually have to ask is whether a different upgrade would work better in most cases.

16 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I'm loving the fact that responses that boil down to "I saw them used once in a game where they almost mattered, maybe they're okay?" are the strongest defense of NK-7s so far in the thread.

I would like to remind you it's a 10-point upgrade, gentlemen. "I saw it almost make a difference one time" is not exactly reassuring, .

People are happy spending 21pts on Nym in their 134pt squad builds. Yay you discarded a brace/redirect. Great, now shoot that ship with your cr90 as the best battleship you can afford having depleted your entire fleet points on a single Nym trick! Ooh look he didnt brace 3 damage into 2, 1 bonus damage! So worth it.....

Yeah I dont understand Nym.

1 minute ago, rasproteus said:

It's like Konstantine. It isn't terrible on its face, and there are situations where you might be glad to have it, but the question you eventually have to ask is whether a different upgrade would work better in most cases.

The glory of list building with Konstantine, you develop some great lists once you detach yourself from choosing the admiral at the start, instead selecting a new admiral to replace Konstantine after playtesting.

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

The glory of list building with Konstantine, you develop some great lists once you detach yourself from choosing the admiral at the start, instead selecting a new admiral to replace Konstantine after playtesting.

You've just got to free your mind, man. Let go of your preconceptions, man.

44 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Your point? How does that help Sato?

Who want to help Sato? He is already OP

Though he didn't say Sato so maybe I didn't understand you. What post were you talking about?

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Yeah I dont understand Nym

Nym worked well for me in wave 2 with a 2 Neb HMC80 build, but that was pre-Toryn or BCC. I'd probably use him now in a 3+2 or a non YGH 2+3, maybe with like Admo as one of the other ships.

In a standard list, though, Luke seems both cheaper and better, though.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Yeah I dont understand Nym.

As @geek19 said, he's something of a relic of wave 2, similar to Firesprays and the Independence title. Ideally, he trashed a defending ship's brace before the HMC80 with XI7s opened up on them, which could produce a lot of damage in a Sloane-like fashion. Nowadays, there really aren't many Rebel heavy bomber fleets that feature an HMC80 (or other ship that can produce a large salvo), so his effect isn't in high demand for the fleets that can expect to deliver him.

...yet. We'll see what happens with wave 7.

14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

As @geek19 said, he's something of a relic of wave 2, similar to Firesprays and the Independence title. Ideally, he trashed a defending ship's brace before the HMC80 with XI7s opened up on them, which could produce a lot of damage in a Sloane-like fashion. Nowadays, there really aren't many Rebel heavy bomber fleets that feature an HMC80 (or other ship that can produce a large salvo), so his effect isn't in high demand for the fleets that can expect to deliver him.

...yet. We'll see what happens with wave 7.

Hmm, I wonder if Firesprays or some weird Nym build aren't worth revisiting. The old stuff isn't bad, just some of the newer stuff seems to have supplanted a lot of it. Things to consider....

The original intent seems to have been putting these on a low damage early activation platform like a CR90B or Raider-II, and then stripping a token for a key follow-up shot. In practice, getting that ship into position and getting it to fire is not exactly easy to do. Couple that with the fact that most ships have one particular token, usually the brace, that you really want to remove, or they have other entirely more effective and point efficient ways for you to handle them, and you've got an upgrade that just isn't great. Part of me wants to say 5 points, but even that is still pretty expensive for an upgrade that might not have a key effect. Most of the time, I can deal effectively with overloading tokens on a CR90-B simply by taking SW-7 and throwing two three damage shots at them, and sometimes Ion Cannon Batteries is reasonable. At that point, you're conceding token use to your opponent entirely, but you're getting the job done.

1 minute ago, geek19 said:

Hmm, I wonder if Firesprays or some weird Nym build aren't worth revisiting. The old stuff isn't bad, just some of the newer stuff seems to have supplanted a lot of it. Things to consider....

I don't know about Nym, but I do think the fact that Firesprays aren't on the table opens up some key builds that we do currently see on the table. But I'm not sure what exactly gets Firesprays back on the table. GH/Yavaris builds and Sloan Alphas are prominent enough and knock them back a ton.

8 minutes ago, geek19 said:

Hmm, I wonder if Firesprays or some weird Nym build aren't worth revisiting. The old stuff isn't bad, just some of the newer stuff seems to have supplanted a lot of it. Things to consider....

Having said I dont understand Nym, I do wonder if he has a place in a moderate Sato squad wing. He wants to get in early, has tokens to let him last a little while and if you can get Toryn in position, a reasonable shot at the brace disappearing. Most Sato lists dont have any more elaborate ways of dealing with defence tokens other than overloading.

I like the idea, but it seems a confused upgrade. It feels like most ships have either some redundant tokens, some expendable ones, or are so small/cheap/fragile that missing a token doesn't have a huge impact on their suitability anyway. Large ships are gonna toss you their contain first, so you'd need to either spend 2 rounds getting NK7 crits, or have it on two ships both able to proc on the same target. It looks like an upgrade you'd want to spam due to how quickly the effects stack up, but that gets really expensive and requires ships with ion cannons and a lot of blue dice.

Things like Pickles or ISDs are going to be OK losing the one token and will be blowing you up in the meantime. Things like Raiders or CR90s are fine losing one of their evades, and a massive hit is going to one-shot them regardless of how many tokens they have left.

I'm all for unusual upgrades but this one is expensive and situational.

17 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Sounds like the important thing was not the NK7 but the fact that you ate a fully-loaded ISD2 3 turns in a row. If they'd spent those 10 points and that ion slot more wisely, maybe they would've killed you instead of just making you sweat.

Oh i'm sure. That was one of our first matches with the pickle vs. the wedge, and it was an especially brutal slugfest match. Still i remember thinking to myself "i man have to accidentally lose that card of his"

13 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Having said I dont understand Nym, I do wonder if he has a place in a moderate Sato squad wing. He wants to get in early, has tokens to let him last a little while and if you can get Toryn in position, a reasonable shot at the brace disappearing. Most Sato lists dont have any more elaborate ways of dealing with defence tokens other than overloading.

Some day there's going to be time for trying all these shenanigans.

19 hours ago, Snipafist said:

As @geek19 said, he's something of a relic of wave 2, similar to Firesprays and the Independence title. Ideally, he trashed a defending ship's brace before the HMC80 with XI7s opened up on them, which could produce a lot of damage in a Sloane-like fashion. Nowadays, there really aren't many Rebel heavy bomber fleets that feature an HMC80 (or other ship that can produce a large salvo), so his effect isn't in high demand for the fleets that can expect to deliver him.

...yet. We'll see what happens with wave 7.

I'd agree with you on Independence, and to a degree Nym (who I think still has a place in an Aceholes list), but Firesprays?

They seem to occupy a unique position as an independent, fairly cost effective fighter-bomber for fleets that don't have squadron commands spare.

On NK-7s: my Devastator list would love to see more of these on the table.

19 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Having said I dont understand Nym, I do wonder if he has a place in a moderate Sato squad wing. He wants to get in early, has tokens to let him last a little while and if you can get Toryn in position, a reasonable shot at the brace disappearing. Most Sato lists dont have any more elaborate ways of dealing with defence tokens other than overloading.

I took him during one of my recent Hera experiments in a bomber fleet with Admonition in it. I'm sure he would've been much nicer if I hadn't been up against an MSU. He's not a bad upgrade over an H-6 though: 5 points drops Heavy, gains 2 braces, and gets the crit effect. Just dropping Heavy on a 6-hull squadron lends him some nice secondary defensive flexibility.

He's not really efficient, but remember he does do stuff other than just the crit effect.

37 minutes ago, ManInTheBox said:

They seem to occupy a unique position as an independent, fairly cost effective fighter-bomber for fleets that don't have squadron commands spare.

Appearances can be deceiving.

For 18 points, they're just as bad as dogfighting for their cost as TIE bombers (average of 1.5 damage for 18 points versus 0.75 damage for 9). Dogfighters they are not, which removes the fighter- component of the fighter-bomber. They're also okay but not great as bombers, given the two blue dice. Rogue is certainly nice, but speed 3 is... eh. Back in the days before flotillas and such, they were a great way to get a low-maintenance Rhymerball in your fleet that struck largely during the squadron phase and could be covered well by Intel. Once flotillas became available and afterwards (the Quasar, for example), Imperials haven't hard a hard time getting both activations and squadrons that activate in the squadron phase without too much trouble. That and the increased numbers of legitimate fighters out there starting in wave 6 (due to Sloane as well as the Rebel heavy squad counter-builds to Sloane), and the Firesprays that actually do show up have a lot more squads actively gunning for them than they used to.

On 1/6/2018 at 2:55 AM, Ardaedhel said:

The difference is that this can be combo'd with already-useful acc tech, and is useful for the sort of ship that can take it. Snip is right on: these are awesome if you bring 2 or 3 on CR90B's or Raider-2's... But then you have a fleet of CR90B's or Raider-2's that already mitigate defense tokens inherently and would've gotten much more mileage out of just spending the points on SW-7 spam to increase damage throughput.

QTT, on the other hand, has a role--albeit an admittedly narrow niche--in pushing ranged damage onto flotillas and double-evades. You can combo to make it better with acc tech that is already useful. A QTT Battlecruiser under Home One with some other stuff has a reasonable chance at popping a pair of flotillas at long range to even up activations and knock out critical support functions like BCC or Toryn early in the fight. I'm not saying that makes it GOOD, but it's definitely more useable than NK7 has ever been.

I would argue QTT is worse just base on opportunity cost i.e. what else you could be taking. NK-7 is only really competing with Leading shots and maybe SW7s on a stretch. QTTs are competing with TRC, XI7s, H9s, Dual Turbolasers and even Quad Batteries in some cases...and it's more expensive than all of them for some baffling reason.

Guess it might be fine against fleets that want to spend their tokens for something other than defense (i.e. Vader- maybe), and then of course there are those ships that have few tokens that are all good (CR90s come to mind).

Should you find yourself facing a lot of small ships or flotillas and want to just out-dice your opponent, I could see trying out a bunch of Gunnery Team/ NK7 Vic IIs with Screed.

But even then, this is expensive- and the above points against it still stand.