Just now, SoonerTed said:

ACM damage cannot be braced, per FAQ.

but overall damage can.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

but overall damage can.

Just not the two from ACM.... Even if you brace the overall damage, you still get +2 damage.

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

Just not the two from ACM.... Even if you brace the overall damage, you still get +2 damage.

Yes, but brace still has an impact on the overall damage, which is what Gink was asking for.

And no, I don't have my script handy right now, sorry Gink. Maybe tomorrow night--pushing around some spaceships tonight.

3 hours ago, ripper998 said:

What is with all the Sato talk lately? Seems like ever rebel player has a love affair with him.

Sato is one of those guys that looks like he should be good, so folks will keep trying him each wave with new stuff until he works

3 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I think it's also important to note that the card exhausts to use, so fantasies of a double-arcing double-critting-on-each-attack ship cannot become reality.

I keep trying to explain that this card sucks.

3 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

What is average damage with ACM/APT with Brace and without Brace vs ACM with OE, Brace and without Brace?

So we're starting with the assumption of Ordnance Cruiser double-arcing:

Front arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
57.8% chance of triggering the double crit, which would produce 3 total damage (1 to hull + 2 to side shields) + 4.5 average damage =

4.5 + (0.578*3) = 6.23 damage unbraced, 3.98 damage braced.

Front arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
82.2% chance of triggering the ACMs assuming aggressive rerolling. OE improves average black die damage to 1.25, so average damage improves to 5.25.

5.25+ (0.822*2) = 6.89 damage unbraced, 4.27 damage braced.

Side arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
43.75% chance of triggering a crit, which we assume would be just ACMs if the FCTs are exhausted but will be both if they weren't used before. The math is gonna be below, so bear with me. Otherwise, it's an average of (2+2.25=)4.25 damage.

4.25 + (0.4375 * ((.422 [chance of not using FCTs earlier] *3)+(.578 [chance of using it earlier*2)) = 4.25 + 0.4375(1.27+1.16) = 4.25 + 1.06 = 5.31 damage unbraced, 3.19 damage braced.

Side arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
68.4% chance of triggering the crit with aggressive rerolls, which would produce 2 damage. Black dice improve average damage to 1.25 due to OE. Average pre-crit damage is thus 4.75.

4.75 + (0.684*2) = 4.75 + 1.37 = 6.12 damage unbraced, 3.75 damage braced.

Total damage from double-arcing

FCTs, ACMs+APTs
Versus no brace = 11.54
Versus brace = 7.17

ACMS and Ordnance Experts
Versus no brace = 13.01
Versus brace = 8.02

Conclusion
You're better off using Ordnance Experts and one ordnance upgrade. Damage would change a bit with APTs, but ACMs are the highest-damage black crit and are particularly good against other large ships that want to brace. The experiment also did not account for the addition of something like External Racks, Expanded Launchers, or Rapid Reload to further benefit the Ordnance Experts vessel when equipped to the empty ordnance slot.

@Snipafist you can only FCT once, which makes that even worse

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

@Snipafist you can only FCT once, which makes that even worse

Actually that's accounted for in the number-crunching. The side arc attack considers two different crit outcomes dependent on if the FCTs were used earlier.

9 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

So we're starting with the assumption of Ordnance Cruiser double-arcing:

Front arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
57.8% chance of triggering the double crit, which would produce 3 total damage (1 to hull + 2 to side shields) + 4.5 average damage =

4.5 + (0.578*3) = 6.23 damage unbraced, 3.98 damage braced.

Front arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
82.2% chance of triggering the ACMs assuming aggressive rerolling. OE improves average black die damage to 1.25, so average damage improves to 5.25.

5.25+ (0.822*2) = 6.89 damage unbraced, 4.27 damage braced.

Side arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
43.75% chance of triggering a crit, which we assume would be just ACMs if the FCTs are exhausted but will be both if they weren't used before. The math is gonna be below, so bear with me. Otherwise, it's an average of (2+2.25=)4.25 damage.

4.25 + (0.4375 * ((.422 [chance of not using FCTs earlier] *3)+(.578 [chance of using it earlier*2)) = 4.25 + 0.4375(1.27+1.16) = 4.25 + 1.06 = 5.31 damage unbraced, 3.19 damage braced.

Side arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
68.4% chance of triggering the crit with aggressive rerolls, which would produce 2 damage. Black dice improve average damage to 1.25 due to OE. Average pre-crit damage is thus 4.75.

4.75 + (0.684*2) = 4.75 + 1.37 = 6.12 damage unbraced, 3.75 damage braced.

Total damage from double-arcing

FCTs, ACMs+APTs
Versus no brace = 11.54
Versus brace = 7.17

ACMS and Ordnance Experts
Versus no brace = 13.01
Versus brace = 8.02

Conclusion
You're better off using Ordnance Experts and one ordnance upgrade. Damage would change a bit with APTs, but ACMs are the highest-damage black crit and are particularly good against other large ships that want to brace. The experiment also did not account for the addition of something like External Racks, Expanded Launchers, or Rapid Reload to further benefit the Ordnance Experts vessel when equipped to the empty ordnance slot.

You don't need a double crit to trigger both critical effects. One is sufficient. FCT hasn't been ruled that you need multiple crit die to resolve multiple black-crit effects. The cards just say "black crit".

1 minute ago, SoonerTed said:

You don't need a double crit to trigger both critical effects. One is sufficient. FCT hasn't been ruled that you need multiple crit die to resolve multiple black-crit effects. The cards just say "black crit".

At no point in the data did I assume you needed two crits to trigger them both. It's all based on needing one black crit. The FCT crit odds are lower because they don't get the reroll to go fishing for it.

Edit: Also at no point did I say any results needed two crits, so I'm not sure where this is coming from. With the side arc there are two crit possibilities for damage added, but that's entirely based on the odds of getting the crit there AND whether or not you used your FCTs on the first attack, where they were more likely to be used).

Just now, Snipafist said:

At no point in the data did I assume you needed two crits to trigger them both. It's all based on needing one black crit. The FCT crit odds are lower because they don't get the reroll to go fishing for it.

I apologize. I misread when you said "double crit". It has been a long day of coding, and my brain is a bit stir-fried.

13 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

I apologize. I misread when you said "double crit". It has been a long day of coding, and my brain is a bit stir-fried.

No worries, SoonerTed. We've all made mistakes on here. :looking around: Well at least i have

Yes but @Snipafist

what about Sato in those calculations... If we can change 2 dice to blacks on both arcs, what then? Is fct looking good in that case?

Whats the result if target has an evade?

5 hours ago, SkyCake said:

Yes but @Snipafist

what about Sato in those calculations... If we can change 2 dice to blacks on both arcs, what then? Is fct looking good in that case?

Sure, let's go for that. I want to express my strong reservations about the Fire-Control Team cruiser having the best possible setup and the Ordnance Experts cruiser having only one ordnance upgrade, though. Giving External Racks to the Ordnance Experts cruiser evens up the points costs and likely makes it a clear winner but sure let's crunch some numbers:

Front arc of 5 black dice
FCT cruiser does 5 average damage and has a 76.3% chance of getting 1+ black crits. So:
Base damage:5
Crit damage average: (0.763*3=) 2.29
Total 7.29, braced to 4.79

Ordnance Experts cruiser does 6.25 average damage and has a 94.4% chance of getting 1+ black crits. So:
Base damage: 6.25
Crit damage average: (0.944*2=) 1.89
Total 8.14, braced to 5.02

Side arc of 1 red die and 4 black dice
FCT cruiser does 4.75 average damage and has a 68.4% chance of getting 1+ black crits. Again (per the first version), if the FCTs were already used on the first attack then they can't be used again and it will just resolve the ACMS to maximize damage, so we're going to have to account for that in the crit damage:
Base damage: 4.75
Crit damage average if FCTs not already used: (0.684*0.237*3=) 0.49
Crit damage average if FCTs already used" (0.684*0.763*2=) 1.04
Total crit average damage: 1.53
Total 6.28, braced to 3.91

Ordnance Experts cruiser does 5.75 average damage and has a 90% chance of getting 1+ black crits.
Base damage: 5.75
Crit damage average: (.90*2=)1.80
Total 7.55, braced to 4.68

Totals for both
FCT cruiser against no brace: 13.57
FCT cruiser braced both times: 8.70

OE cruiser against no brace: 15.69
OE cruiser braced both times: 9.70

Conclusion
OE cruiser still wins hands down and this is without giving it something in the other ordnance slot .

Edit: Also, it would appear that for the Ordnance Experts version anyways, Sato improves its average damage (both braced and not) by 21%, which is pretty respectable

Finally, all y'all need to learn to crunch some numbers for yourselves .

3 hours ago, Ophion said:

Whats the result if target has an evade?

...nothing, because evades do nothing at close range?

And before anyone asks, no, I'm not doing this with Mon Mothma. Never. The math gets convoluted and takes a fair amount longer.

7 hours ago, Snipafist said:

So we're starting with the assumption of Ordnance Cruiser double-arcing:

Front arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
57.8% chance of triggering the double crit, which would produce 3 total damage (1 to hull + 2 to side shields) + 4.5 average damage =

4.5 + (0.578*3) = 6.23 damage unbraced, 3.98 damage braced.

Front arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
82.2% chance of triggering the ACMs assuming aggressive rerolling. OE improves average black die damage to 1.25, so average damage improves to 5.25.

5.25+ (0.822*2) = 6.89 damage unbraced, 4.27 damage braced.

Side arc with FCTs, ACMs+APTs:
43.75% chance of triggering a crit, which we assume would be just ACMs if the FCTs are exhausted but will be both if they weren't used before. The math is gonna be below, so bear with me. Otherwise, it's an average of (2+2.25=)4.25 damage.

4.25 + (0.4375 * ((.422 [chance of not using FCTs earlier] *3)+(.578 [chance of using it earlier*2)) = 4.25 + 0.4375(1.27+1.16) = 4.25 + 1.06 = 5.31 damage unbraced, 3.19 damage braced.

Side arc with ACMs and Ordnance Experts:
68.4% chance of triggering the crit with aggressive rerolls, which would produce 2 damage. Black dice improve average damage to 1.25 due to OE. Average pre-crit damage is thus 4.75.

4.75 + (0.684*2) = 4.75 + 1.37 = 6.12 damage unbraced, 3.75 damage braced.

Total damage from double-arcing

FCTs, ACMs+APTs
Versus no brace = 11.54
Versus brace = 7.17

ACMS and Ordnance Experts
Versus no brace = 13.01
Versus brace = 8.02

Conclusion
You're better off using Ordnance Experts and one ordnance upgrade. Damage would change a bit with APTs, but ACMs are the highest-damage black crit and are particularly good against other large ships that want to brace. The experiment also did not account for the addition of something like External Racks, Expanded Launchers, or Rapid Reload to further benefit the Ordnance Experts vessel when equipped to the empty ordnance slot.

I’ll tak your word for it. How people have the patience for this number crunching escapes me.

Just now, Jabby said:

I’ll tak your word for it. How people have the patience for this number crunching escapes me.

Once you understand how it works, it's not too bad and in a way it's kind of fun. It's the really convoluted stuff that gets... not great (see: why I'm not doing the averages versus Mon Mothma).

It's also a good way to compare different options rather than simply judge things based on a feeling or anecdotal experiences.

1 minute ago, Snipafist said:

Once you understand how it works, it's not too bad and in a way it's kind of fun. It's the really convoluted stuff that gets... not great (see: why I'm not doing the averages versus Mon Mothma).

It's also a good way to compare different options rather than simply judge things based on a feeling or anecdotal experiences.

I can only get as far as the average damage without rerolls. Anything further and my brain dies.

As a side note, are you going to be getting into Legion?

1 minute ago, Jabby said:

I can only get as far as the average damage without rerolls. Anything further and my brain dies.

I understand. I got really into probability in 6th grade due to an assignment and kept finding it applicable in all the various dice-based games I played and it kind of developed from there. I'm sure mathematicians here can do the same thing only perhaps a bit faster, as I'm largely self-taught, but it takes some getting used to. I wrote an article on it for the blog, if you're interested.

Quote

As a side note, are you going to be getting into Legion?

I'm going to dip my toes in, but I'm not planning to get into it nearly as hard as Armada. The missus is excited about trying it, so it may become our casual for funsies game with some of our other friends.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I understand. I got really into probability in 6th grade due to an assignment and kept finding it applicable in all the various dice-based games I played and it kind of developed from there. I'm sure mathematicians here can do the same thing only perhaps a bit faster, as I'm largely self-taught, but it takes some getting used to. I wrote an article on it for the blog, if you're interested.

I'm going to dip my toes in, but I'm not planning to get into it nearly as hard as Armada. The missus is excited about trying it, so it may become our casual for funsies game with some of our other friends.

I’ve read your article (I regularly check your blog) but i still don’t understand it. Probability isn’t my strong suit, its one of myweaker areas in maths

7 minutes ago, Jabby said:

I’ve read your article (I regularly check your blog) but i still don’t understand it. Probability isn’t my strong suit, its one of myweaker areas in maths

I have a math degree and I still have to refer to the article often enough. Don't worry too much about it.

The maths is one thing... what i was getting at is once you are at anything other than close range your damage is bggr all nuthin if the target can evade.

Now for those who are desperate for mass crit effects. May I remind you:

And add that Sato really does like VCXs anyway....

4 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Now for those who are desperate for mass crit effects. May I remind you:

And add that Sato really does like VCXs anyway....

Yes this seems like a decent build/list for targeting bacon for sure ??. Still bummed about exhaust on fire control... I'll try it though, even if it is in the realm of magical Christmas land, I still feel the urge to save the dream!

5 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Yes this seems like a decent build/list for targeting bacon for sure ??. Still bummed about exhaust on fire control... I'll try it though, even if it is in the realm of magical Christmas land, I still feel the urge to save the dream!

Mmm, targeting bacon.