Is it possible to LAUNCH a bomb with the Trajectory Simulator when revealing dial AND AFTER THAT DROP a bomb in the same turn as an action?

Arguably yes, but don't expect the option to survive the next FAQ.

No. You can only ever deploy a single bomb in a round, regardless of how it is deployed.

From the FAQ:

Q: If I have a ship equipped with multiple bombs, can I drop more than one in the same round? A: No. Each ship is limited to a single bomb drop each round

I know you are saying "But I am 'launching', not 'dropping'" but as the TS says the 'launch' is instead of your 'drop' you have already used your 'drop' for that round. I agree this will likely be clarified in the next FAQ.

As long it is not FAQed, it should be possible. The card says:

" launch bombs using the 5 Straight template instead of dropping"

47 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

No. You can only ever deploy a single bomb in a round, regardless of how it is deployed.

From the FAQ:

Q: If I have a ship equipped with multiple bombs, can I drop more than one in the same round? A: No. Each ship is limited to a single bomb drop each round

I know you are saying "But I am 'launching', not 'dropping'" but as the TS says the 'launch' is instead of your 'drop' you have already used your 'drop' for that round. I agree this will likely be clarified in the next FAQ.

This undoubtedly what they meant.

Unfortunately it is not what they wrote.

For Deathtrain the description is better:

"When dropping a bomb, you may use the front guides of your ship. After dropping a bomb, you may perform a free barrel roll action."

So there is a difference between dropping and launching...

On the other Hand, using TS should not trigger deathtrain ;-)

See here:

I am usually on at FFG constantly for not using keywords wherever they can - however, in this case, I don't understand why they chose to define a new keyword when 'drop using a 5 straight from your front guides' would fit just fine on the card, and wouldn't have caused this issue AND would have been compatible with Deathrain.

48 minutes ago, Wittrik said:

As long it is not FAQed, it should be possible. The card says:

" launch bombs using the 5 Straight template instead of dropping"

Idioms ( inste ad of )

instead of, in place of; in lieu of:

You can use milk instead of cream in this recipe."

So it is should not be declared as a "drop"

Exactly. You can launch instead of dropping. As in the definition, you can use milk instead of cream, does not mean that after using the milk you go back and can use cream too. You have 1 'drop' in a round and you expend it with the launch. You can launch instead of dropping... you cannot go and drop after you have launched.

Imagine each round you have a token that says "drop". You can turn that in to drop a bomb either as a pre-move maneuver bomb or an action bomb. You get it back during the cleanup. After you reveal your maneuver you want to turn launch a bomb. You have to turn in that token to drop a bomb, then you launch it instead of dropping, you don't get the token back. You spent it on the launch. Now you perform your maneuver and want to use a cluster mine. You say you are spending your action to do so, but you have no drop token any more so you can't do it. While the token is not a real thing, it does apply for the sake of this rule.

That is one valid interpretation.

There are two.

I am in agreement with @xbeaker on the grounds that you should always do what the card says to do and not what the card does not say to do.

In the activation phase you reveal your maneuver dial and decide to follow the card text on Seismic Charges: "When you reveal your maneuver dial, you may discard this card to drop 1 seismic charge token." but you also have Trajectory Simulator so, after you have declared you'll be dropping a Seismic Charge, you decide to "launch bombs using the [forward 5] template instead of dropping them." In order to use Trajectory Simulator you must have already committed to fulfilling the trigger of drop ping a bomb.

The other interpretation would require Trajectory Simulator to instruct you to treat " drop " as " launch " so that when you reveal your maneuver dial Seismic Charges would now read: "When you reveal your maneuver dial, you may discard this card to launch 1 seismic charge token." Simply put, this is not how Trajectory Simulator is worded. The card never instructs the player to treat " drop " as " launch " it only ever provides the option to " launch " a bomb you've already triggered to " drop ." I see the thought behind this interpretation and fully understand why people want it to be true, but it requires the player to go beyond simply doing what the card tells you to do.

I do agree vehemently with @thespaceinvader as to the point that FFG should've just worded Trajectory Simulator as: "When you drop a bomb you may use the [forward 5] template from your front guides instead." Similar to what Bombardier does, just specify the use of the front guides.

Other valid interpretation is that when it comes to your action, you ask yourself 'have I Dropped a bomb this round?'

And the answer is no - launching is not dropping, they're different keywords, I've only Launched a bomb this round. SO I can go ahead and drop one just fine.

To be clear, I don't think this is intended, it's just bad writing. But it IS what's on the cards/rules.

15 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

I am in agreement with @xbeaker on the grounds that you should always do what the card says to do and not what the card does not say to do.

In the activation phase you reveal your maneuver dial and decide to follow the card text on Seismic Charges: "When you reveal your maneuver dial, you may discard this card to drop 1 seismic charge token." but you also have Trajectory Simulator so, after you have declared you'll be dropping a Seismic Charge, you decide to "launch bombs using the [forward 5] template instead of dropping them." In order to use Trajectory Simulator you must have already committed to fulfilling the trigger of drop ping a bomb.

The other interpretation would require Trajectory Simulator to instruct you to treat " drop " as " launch " so that when you reveal your maneuver dial Seismic Charges would now read: "When you reveal your maneuver dial, you may discard this card to launch 1 seismic charge token." Simply put, this is not how Trajectory Simulator is worded. The card never instructs the player to treat " drop " as " launch " it only ever provides the option to " launch " a bomb you've already triggered to " drop ." I see the thought behind this interpretation and fully understand why people want it to be true, but it requires the player to go beyond simply doing what the card tells you to do.

I do agree vehemently with @thespaceinvader as to the point that FFG should've just worded Trajectory Simulator as: "When you drop a bomb you may use the [forward 5] template from your front guides instead." Similar to what Bombardier does, just specify the use of the front guides.

Well put. In fact I noticed something else. If people are arguing that launching does not count as dropping, then they are also saying that you do not discard the bomb when you launch it. As the bomb upgrade says you discard it to "drop" it. So by the logic of launching isn't dropping, you can launch the same bomb over and over again. And since launching isn't dropping, there is no limit on the number of launches. So you can perform hundreds of launches in the same turn. "So I reveal my straight 1, I am going to use my TS to launch 4,000 Seismic charges. I hope your red dice are hot tonight, you are gonna need a lot of blanks and eye's to survive this!" lol

But yeah I Agree, they should have either clarified that launching and dropping are interchangeable or just said "you may drop a bomb using the front guides..."

You'd have to use bomblets, not seismics, you can't launch infinite anything otherwise.

And once per opportunity prevents you triggering the card more than once per dial reveal anyway.

Your attempt at reductio ad absurdum doesn't help.

The best case I can think of that a TrajSim ship shouldn't be able to drop and launch in the same turn is this: you receive one opportunity to drop a bomb per turn. If you use that opportunity to Launch a bomb instead, you've still used your one opportunity, so you can't drop later. For example, upgrades like Feedback Array substitute something else instead of attacking, but don't then allow you to attack. It's not an exact parallel, though, since bomb drop opportunities can come at different times in the game, and various upgrades allow multiple attacks.

As such, I certainly don't feel this is an entirely airtight argument. The "drop and launch are different enough to do both" has at least some merit. Just not enough, I think, to overcome the baseline "one per turn" rule and clear design intent of dropping bombs.

Either way, I think TOs ought to rule against being able to drop and launch in the same turn. I think when bombs were first designed, the game designers looked at the fundamental balance, and decided they had to be one per turn. Sloppy wording left some ambiguity now after like 10 waves of "one per turn" only bombing. I don't think that's enough to allow double-bombs, until an FAQ specifically does.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Either way, I think TOs ought to rule against being able to drop and launch in the same turn. I think when bombs were first designed, the game designers looked at the fundamental balance, and decided they had to be one per turn. Sloppy wording left some ambiguity now after like 10 waves of "one per turn" only bombing. I don't think that's enough to allow double-bombs, until an FAQ specifically does.

Oh, for sure. I doubt there are (and I hope there aren't) and TOs who'd allow both in one turn.

And let's not forget it's also a pretty bad strategy- to be able to do this even once means a ship with two bomb slots, to do it more than once requires a Punisher, a K Wing, Andrasta, or a ship with a single Bomb slot and EM or Scav Crane AND Sabine or Cad Bane.

This is basically pure theory.

53 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Oh, for sure. I doubt there are (and I hope there aren't) and TOs who'd allow both in one turn.

And let's not forget it's also a pretty bad strategy- to be able to do this even once means a ship with two bomb slots, to do it more than once requires a Punisher, a K Wing, Andrasta, or a ship with a single Bomb slot and EM or Scav Crane AND Sabine or Cad Bane.

This is basically pure theory.

Not even K-Wing or Andrasta, since they don't have system slots.

But recall most bomb things are once-per-game. Getting two once-per-game effects in a single turn can be strong.

Hrm. I was trying to figure out when the "once per turn" rule came into X-Wing... no ship could carry more than one bomb until Andrasta in Wave 6, and then Extra Munitions came in Wave 7 with K-Wings and Punishers. Did the rule predate ways to drop multiple bombs?

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

You'd have to use bomblets, not seismics, you can't launch infinite anything otherwise.

And once per opportunity prevents you triggering the card more than once per dial reveal anyway.

Your attempt at reductio ad absurdum doesn't help.

I was largely joking. But in all honesty based on the idea that launching is exclusive from dropping, you could use any bomb like a bomblet generator, because the card indeed says you discard it on a "drop". You could not, of course drop 4,000 but if you had multiple bombs loaded into different slots, as you could on a TIE Punisher or or a B/SF 17 those who argue that they are launching is not dropping must agree that you could launch both bombs every round. I launch Seismic Charge 1, that is not a drop, I do not discard it. I launch Seismic charge 2, I can launch 2 bombs as there is no limit on launching and I do not discard it as you discard on a drop.

You have to discard the bomb to trigger trajectory sim in the first place tho.

Is there any other use of "instead of" in x wing that could be used as a precedence until the inevitable FAQ? Something like Feedback Array? You can use that instead of attacking, but you can't then go back and say my ship is still the active ship in combat and hasn't attacked this round, so I'm going to attack now.

Are there any other or better examples?

It should be pretty clear that doing B instead of A and then trying to do A again later since you haven't already done it should have some kind of conflict when you're limited to only 1 per turn.

Yes, I agree. You have to use your drop to trigger it. So you have dropped a bomb. Thus using your 1 and only drop opportunity that round. But by the logic that using TS removes the 'drop' from things you have done, it implies you didn't drop the bomb. It means you (and by 'you' I am not saying you theSpaceInvader, I mean any person arguing that you can launch and drop in the same turn) intend that using a TS somehow rewinds time. If it gives you back your drop, it must also logically give you back the bomb. OR it means that TS overrides the bombs text entirely and simply is using the upgrade card to signify which kind of bomb is being launching, thus not requiring you to discard it.

By all logic and rules in play you:
1. reveal your maneuver dial
2. trigger the bomb card, performing the text on it dropping the bomb (your 1 and only bomb drop has been expended at this point)
3. trigger the TS to launch instead of dropping (no where on the card does it say you recover your ability to drop, "instead of" does not mean "and/or")
4. place your bomb token.
5. continue with your maneuver

12 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

Is there any other use of "instead of" in x wing that could be used as a precedence until the inevitable FAQ? Something like Feedback Array? You can use that instead of attacking, but you can't then go back and say my ship is still the active ship in combat and hasn't attacked this round, so I'm going to attack now.

Are there any other or better examples?

It should be pretty clear that doing B instead of A and then trying to do A again later since you haven't already done it should have some kind of conflict when you're limited to only 1 per turn.

I'll go 1 further.. please someone give me an example, in game or anywhere else, where "instead of" means you get to do the other thing as well. "We can go to the circus instead of the zoo" does not mean you get to go to the zoo after the circus. It is a strict "OR" proposition, taking either option expressly forbids taking the other. It is the very definition of it. If we are arguing the definitions of words and phrases to mean things other than what they are defined as in the English language, then no rule is safe.

The Bombardier Card says instead of :-); Pattern Analyzer....

Honestly I could keep arguing but I agree it shouldn't work so why bother.

FAQ would be lovely.

Probably a dumb question, but since there's already a thread on TS generally, and I can't for the life of me figure this out on my own - does "launch" mean you can shoot the bombs forward? Or does this just mean that you can place the bomb behind you, as normal, but using the 5 instead of the 1? If the latter...why is that good?

17 minutes ago, horsepire said:

Probably a dumb question, but since there's already a thread on TS generally, and I can't for the life of me figure this out on my own - does "launch" mean you can shoot the bombs forward? Or does this just mean that you can place the bomb behind you, as normal, but using the 5 instead of the 1? If the latter...why is that good?

It’s out the front guides